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Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

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11–20 of 132 posts

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#11
post #2

I never knew how to square this with stories about Feynman’s sexual predation. Were these two distinct phases of his life?

It's been many years since I read his memoirs but I remember feeling that he came off as a barely-sympathetic womanizer in them. He had more or less absolute control over his own portrayal of himself so I assume the truth was significantly worse.

It taints the whole “woman he loved” routine as he openly acknowledged his misogyny and objectification of women throughout his life. He can’t love women so how can he love this woman?

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good summary example of something I find distinctly dangerous about the way people think of figures they don't personally know (i.e. how people on the social web treat public figures, or even just any stranger they see on the web). We see snapshots and assemble a person in our head. We can barely do that with any degree of fidelity regarding people we personally know , much less public figures. People do go…

When you take their actions and consider them as a whole, it clearly paints some as good or evil. Sure, no one is movie villain evil or saint-level good, but when a preponderance of their actions have outcomes that are bad for others, then I think it's pretty clear who they are.

Fine, but I explicitly refrained from defending Feynman. The point I made is that it is a sign of a horrible social sickness that we can be confused that it's possible for a person to commit some sexual sin and also for that same person to love somebody.

To further clarify, note this sentence in my comment:

>it still doesn't make him some kind of paradox

I did not say, e.g.

>it still doesn't make him, on par, more bad than good

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#13
post #2

I never knew how to square this with stories about Feynman’s sexual predation. Were these two distinct phases of his life?

As I recall, they married quite young and the womanizing didn’t come until he was older. The optimist in me wants to believe that if Arline had not died, the womanizing wouldn’t have happened. Feynman was a brilliant man but it was clear that losing his wife shook him. Perhaps the womanizing was a consequence of that.

It certainly doesn’t excuse any behavior of his, but perhaps it explains it.

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been many years since I read his memoirs but I remember feeling that he came off as a barely-sympathetic womanizer in them. He had more or less absolute control over his own portrayal of himself so I assume the truth was significantly worse.

You never considered the possibility he was just being honest?

I'd read that as 'the whole truth' rather than a suggestion that the Surely You're Joking series contained outright lies. The books (obviously) don't go into all the details of Feynman's personal and sexual relations, so there is surely much that is omitted. They also don't exactly convey a sense of extreme veracity, being structured as collections of amusing anecdotes.

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#15
post #2

I never knew how to square this with stories about Feynman’s sexual predation. Were these two distinct phases of his life?

Words have meanings.

> sexual predation

I don't think this term is appropriate for anyone who is less than an attempted rapist.

There are many existing words to describe Feynman's behavior. Pervert, philanderer womanizer, consummate cheater.... Let's use existing words that lead to the correct assumptions by those unfamiliar with his sexual behaviors.

A sexual predator evokes Harvey Weinstein. AFAIK, Feynman sounds more like an 80s rock-star, and all the positive + negative behaviors associated with that stereotype.

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#17
post #2

I never knew how to square this with stories about Feynman’s sexual predation. Were these two distinct phases of his life?

Those events are perfectly compatible with each other. Also, what you call sexual predation afaik was to large extend engagement in consensual casual sex. Unless there are some stories I do not know about.

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#18
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good summary example of something I find distinctly dangerous about the way people think of figures they don't personally know (i.e. how people on the social web treat public figures, or even just any stranger they see on the web). We see snapshots and assemble a person in our head. We can barely do that with any degree of fidelity regarding people we personally know , much less public figures. People do go…

In addition to your comment, what I find mind-boggling is how easily people swing between the two extremes of opinion: it seems every public figure must either be adored and admired, or reviled and ostracized. People (myself included, I don't exclude myself from being human!) do not want to contemplate public figures as complex individuals with dark and bright aspects. It's always all or nothing. So Woody Allen went…

I think something you're failing to account for in peoples' reactions these figures is that the relationship between their moral transgressions and their work is not spurious.

Feynman was a notable scientist but he was also one of the most famous scientists, he was a great populizer of science especially later in life. Finding out he was a sex pest or womanizer or worse has tangible consequences to that role. Was he a good mentor in general, or only to women he wanted to fuck? Or only ones he didn't? Were there any women pushed out of science because of his inappropriate attention or advances? We now have to ask these questions, and their answers can retroactively change how we evaluate his later life's work as an advocate of science.

Similarly woody allen makes movies that are compelling because of their portrayal of human connection and vulnerability. As you said, what woody allen is accused of is a great crime, far far beyond routine human flaws. It does change the context and the meaning of the movie to know that this is what its creator thinks of human connection as well. You can decide not to believe the allegations, but for people who do believe them I don't think it's an error or transgression for them to evaluate his movies in light of them.

And it is certainly not true that no one criticized these figures before their "faults" were known. Orson Welles famously with woody allen, Picasso was not always revered, and I disliked feynman from reading his own memoirs. It's just these criticisms are not generally welcomed or amplified for figures in the prime of their accolades. Which is an interesting subject itself, I think.

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been many years since I read his memoirs but I remember feeling that he came off as a barely-sympathetic womanizer in them. He had more or less absolute control over his own portrayal of himself so I assume the truth was significantly worse.

It taints the whole “woman he loved” routine as he openly acknowledged his misogyny and objectification of women throughout his life. He can’t love women so how can he love this woman?

Men are fully capable to love one woman and see others just as sex. Men are fully capable to write romantic letters and mean them in the moment and seek casual sex two hours later.

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#20
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good summary example of something I find distinctly dangerous about the way people think of figures they don't personally know (i.e. how people on the social web treat public figures, or even just any stranger they see on the web). We see snapshots and assemble a person in our head. We can barely do that with any degree of fidelity regarding people we personally know , much less public figures. People do go…

In addition to your comment, what I find mind-boggling is how easily people swing between the two extremes of opinion: it seems every public figure must either be adored and admired, or reviled and ostracized. People (myself included, I don't exclude myself from being human!) do not want to contemplate public figures as complex individuals with dark and bright aspects. It's always all or nothing. So Woody Allen went…

> People cannot bear the thought that artists, scientists and public figures in general are real people, with flaws and all.

Possibly related to the Fundamental Attribution Error in psychology:

"The fundamental attribution error (also known as correspondence bias or over-attribution effect) is the tendency for people to over-emphasize dispositional or personality-based explanations for behaviors observed in others while under-emphasizing situational explanations."

https://www.simplypsychology.org/fundamental-attribution.htm...

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