How Big Pharma reaps profits while hurting everyday Americans (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: How Big Pharma reaps profits while hurting everyday Americans (2019)

#11

Post by hash872 » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #9

The only "innovation" of capitalism is intermediation, otherwise called "rent-seeking". One of the big lies Big Pharma tells you is that R&D is expensive but the actual R&D is done primarily by government funding and research at colleges. Big Pharma spends WAAY more on marketing. The only real R&D Big Pharma does is patent extension. Patents have a life so companies will make minor changes to the molecule or the deli…

>One of the big lies Big Pharma tells you is that R&D is expensive but the actual R&D is done primarily by government funding and research at colleges

Not an expert, but my understanding is that the kind of basic science R&D done by the government and academia is the simplest and easiest type of research to do by far. As it was explained to me- anyone can invent new compounds, the really really really hard low-percentage stuff is trialing that those new compounds are A) medically effective in people, and B) actually safe for people and don't have strong side effects.

Also, I believe that if academia actually does invent something novel & useful, they license it out to pharma companies for a % of the profits. Big universities are not shy at all about licensing their IP

Re: How Big Pharma reaps profits while hurting everyday Americans (2019)

#12

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 4:50 PM UTC

hash872 wrote: post #11

jmyeet wrote: post #9

The only "innovation" of capitalism is intermediation, otherwise called "rent-seeking". One of the big lies Big Pharma tells you is that R&D is expensive but the actual R&D is done primarily by government funding and research at colleges. Big Pharma spends WAAY more on marketing. The only real R&D Big Pharma does is patent extension. Patents have a life so companies will make minor changes to the molecule or the deli…

>One of the big lies Big Pharma tells you is that R&D is expensive but the actual R&D is done primarily by government funding and research at colleges Not an expert, but my understanding is that the kind of basic science R&D done by the government and academia is the simplest and easiest type of research to do by far. As it was explained to me- anyone can invent new compounds, the really really really hard low-percen…

> Not an expert, but my understanding is that the kind of basic science R&D done by the government and academia is the simplest and easiest type of research to do by far.

Yeah it is easy to come up with stuff that works in a lab. For example, just see the HN submissions for new battery technology.

Re: How Big Pharma reaps profits while hurting everyday Americans (2019)

#13

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 4:53 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #9

The only "innovation" of capitalism is intermediation, otherwise called "rent-seeking". One of the big lies Big Pharma tells you is that R&D is expensive but the actual R&D is done primarily by government funding and research at colleges. Big Pharma spends WAAY more on marketing. The only real R&D Big Pharma does is patent extension. Patents have a life so companies will make minor changes to the molecule or the deli…

> The only "innovation" of capitalism is intermediation, otherwise called "rent-seeking". One of the big lies Big Pharma tells you is that R&D is expensive but the actual R&D is done primarily by government funding and research at colleges. Big Pharma spends WAAY more on marketing.

Yet when shit hit the fan with a global pandemic, it was US Pharma companies that were both able to develop and produce and distribute at scale effective vaccines in a very short amount of time.

Re: How Big Pharma reaps profits while hurting everyday Americans (2019)

#14

Post by rqtwteye » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:03 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #2

Pharma strikes me as one of the industries that would benefit heavily from a few congressionally chartered nonprofits being booted up. Same employee comp (with cash substitutes for stock), same general structure, same incentives, but with a mandate to recycle profits back into new drug development rather than paying out to shareholders through buybacks, dividends, etc, all audited by a dedicated regulatory body to en…

A good start would be if the medical industry in the US were run like normal businesses with transparent and consistent pricing. Right now nobody can predict how much something cost because insurances, hospitals, drug companies and a lot of middlemen play all kinds of games. I think we should mandate that all prices are open so people know what's actually going on. Hospitals should also charge the same price for the same procedure to everybody independently of insurance or day of the week or whatever factor makes a procedure cost $5000 sometimes and $50000 another time.

All the excuses like "we need to charge more to insured people because of uninsured people" or "we need to charge 10x as much in the US for drugs than in other countries because of R&D" should be viewed as self serving BS until all the numbers are transparent. If there is an imbalance we should do direct subsidies based on the actual numbers instead of the current mess.

Health care is not regular business in the sense that you don't have to buy a product if it's too expensive and where it's easy to compare competing products. How would I know which hospital is better than another?

Re: How Big Pharma reaps profits while hurting everyday Americans (2019)

#15

Post by Jensson » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:05 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #3

eganist wrote: post #2

Pharma strikes me as one of the industries that would benefit heavily from a few congressionally chartered nonprofits being booted up. Same employee comp (with cash substitutes for stock), same general structure, same incentives, but with a mandate to recycle profits back into new drug development rather than paying out to shareholders through buybacks, dividends, etc, all audited by a dedicated regulatory body to en…

Pharmaceuticals is a pretty capital intensive industry. Who's providing the capital? The government? Moreover, who's providing oversight? Congress? Given how dysfunctional the government is right now, and the tendency of government programs to turn into jobs/pork barrel programs (eg. F35), I'm skeptical that it's going to work out better.

> Pharmaceuticals is a pretty capital intensive industry.

The larger part of that is sales and marketing. They spend more on sales and marketing than research and development in USA. All that is wasted, publishing lots of manipulative ads and marketing material to get as many as possible to buy the most expensive medicines isn't a good use of our resources.

https://www.ahip.org/news/articles/new-study-in-the-midst-of...

Re: How Big Pharma reaps profits while hurting everyday Americans (2019)

#16

Post by mrosett » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:09 PM UTC

hash872 wrote: post #11

jmyeet wrote: post #9

The only "innovation" of capitalism is intermediation, otherwise called "rent-seeking". One of the big lies Big Pharma tells you is that R&D is expensive but the actual R&D is done primarily by government funding and research at colleges. Big Pharma spends WAAY more on marketing. The only real R&D Big Pharma does is patent extension. Patents have a life so companies will make minor changes to the molecule or the deli…

>One of the big lies Big Pharma tells you is that R&D is expensive but the actual R&D is done primarily by government funding and research at colleges Not an expert, but my understanding is that the kind of basic science R&D done by the government and academia is the simplest and easiest type of research to do by far. As it was explained to me- anyone can invent new compounds, the really really really hard low-percen…

This is entirely correct.

Re: How Big Pharma reaps profits while hurting everyday Americans (2019)

#17

Post by jmyeet » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:10 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #13

jmyeet wrote: post #9

The only "innovation" of capitalism is intermediation, otherwise called "rent-seeking". One of the big lies Big Pharma tells you is that R&D is expensive but the actual R&D is done primarily by government funding and research at colleges. Big Pharma spends WAAY more on marketing. The only real R&D Big Pharma does is patent extension. Patents have a life so companies will make minor changes to the molecule or the deli…

> The only "innovation" of capitalism is intermediation, otherwise called "rent-seeking". One of the big lies Big Pharma tells you is that R&D is expensive but the actual R&D is done primarily by government funding and research at colleges. Big Pharma spends WAAY more on marketing. Yet when shit hit the fan with a global pandemic, it was US Pharma companies that were both able to develop and produce and distribute at…

This actually makes my point. mRNA vaccines were researched in academic institutions for decades. The Covid 19 vaccines just took those vaccines and ran them through clinical trials.

This isn't hard to verify. Just this week researchers were awarded the Nobel Prize for Medicine for their work on mRNA vaccines. Did they work for Pfizer? Johnson and Johnson? Some other company? Or was it an academic institution?

Re: How Big Pharma reaps profits while hurting everyday Americans (2019)

#18

Post by twoodfin » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:24 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #17

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only "innovation" of capitalism is intermediation, otherwise called "rent-seeking". One of the big lies Big Pharma tells you is that R&D is expensive but the actual R&D is done primarily by government funding and research at colleges. Big Pharma spends WAAY more on marketing. Yet when shit hit the fan with a global pandemic, it was US Pharma companies that were both able to develop and produce and distribute at…

This actually makes my point. mRNA vaccines were researched in academic institutions for decades . The Covid 19 vaccines just took those vaccines and ran them through clinical trials. This isn't hard to verify. Just this week researchers were awarded the Nobel Prize for Medicine for their work on mRNA vaccines. Did they work for Pfizer? Johnson and Johnson? Some other company? Or was it an academic institution?

“The Covid 19 vaccines just took those vaccines and ran them through clinical trials.”

“Just” that, and figuring out manufacturing and distribution at massive scale. Combined that’s billions.

Re: How Big Pharma reaps profits while hurting everyday Americans (2019)

#19

Post by turtlesdown11 » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:33 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #3

eganist wrote: post #2

Pharma strikes me as one of the industries that would benefit heavily from a few congressionally chartered nonprofits being booted up. Same employee comp (with cash substitutes for stock), same general structure, same incentives, but with a mandate to recycle profits back into new drug development rather than paying out to shareholders through buybacks, dividends, etc, all audited by a dedicated regulatory body to en…

Pharmaceuticals is a pretty capital intensive industry. Who's providing the capital? The government? Moreover, who's providing oversight? Congress? Given how dysfunctional the government is right now, and the tendency of government programs to turn into jobs/pork barrel programs (eg. F35), I'm skeptical that it's going to work out better.

you're not aware that government and universities provide half the funding of basic research in the united states?

Re: How Big Pharma reaps profits while hurting everyday Americans (2019)

#20

Post by superbatfish » Sat, Oct 07, 2023, 5:37 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #17

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only "innovation" of capitalism is intermediation, otherwise called "rent-seeking". One of the big lies Big Pharma tells you is that R&D is expensive but the actual R&D is done primarily by government funding and research at colleges. Big Pharma spends WAAY more on marketing. Yet when shit hit the fan with a global pandemic, it was US Pharma companies that were both able to develop and produce and distribute at…

This actually makes my point. mRNA vaccines were researched in academic institutions for decades . The Covid 19 vaccines just took those vaccines and ran them through clinical trials. This isn't hard to verify. Just this week researchers were awarded the Nobel Prize for Medicine for their work on mRNA vaccines. Did they work for Pfizer? Johnson and Johnson? Some other company? Or was it an academic institution?

Gotta love the word “just” in that first paragraph.

The majority of the research money behind most (if not all) drugs, is spent well after academia’s contribution. Clinical trials are very costly, they usually fail, and yet they’re quite important!