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Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

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Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#12

sex·ist [sek-sist] adjective 1. pertaining to, involving, or fostering sexism: a sexist remark; sexist advertising. sex·ism [sek-siz-uhm] noun 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles. 2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women. I don't think the bot is exactly sexist. It's stupid…

[deleted]

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#13

sex·ist [sek-sist] adjective 1. pertaining to, involving, or fostering sexism: a sexist remark; sexist advertising. sex·ism [sek-siz-uhm] noun 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles. 2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women. I don't think the bot is exactly sexist. It's stupid…

> 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles [...] devaluation based on a person's sex

Here're the categories you could argue the bot falls into. The point of the "that's what she said" is to point out when phrases sound like something a woman might have said in bed or during some sort of sexual activity, furthering the already staggeringly vast perception our society has of women as primarily sexual objects. It's not what I'd call "grossly" sexist, but if somebody's objecting to it, she absolutely has a reason to feel uncomfortable about it.

I disagree that the supervisor is necessary here. First off, that's making an appeal to authority and such appeals can be pretty irritating; second off, that's trying to solve the problem privately rather than in public space. By making this bot, Jessamyn says that her voice is as valuable as anybody else's voice. If somebody else wants to make a bot that makes crude sex jokes, she can make a bot that quotes notable women. And rather than making a bot that's irritating or one-note, it sounds like she made a bot that has a variety of colorful responses, to the point where one of her coworkers told her how much he appreciates it.

Remember that sexism is about the reinforcement of cultural stereotypes, rather than being just about gross bigotry or discrimination. What's sexist is that people assume, in a workplace, that jokes about what women say in bed are acceptable. Those jokes make me a little uncomfortable even in a casual environment; it's kind of gross that people are okay with them at work. The sexism isn't one person consciously thinking "Oh man let's women the butt of jokes about sex!", it's that women-as-sex-objects is such a pervasive trope that we don't notice it unless somebody like Jessamyn points it out to us.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#15
post #6

A very nice write up. I say this politely[1] but I thought this was odd: > Now I could run it from one of the development servers at work. Really? Is that kind of thing common? [1] because I don't want to add to the air of general negativity around HN.

Depends on what you mean by a developoment server. You probably don't want to run something like that on a build server, or test environment. On the other hand some places have a general-purpose hosts too. For example at one of my previous places we had a host which basically was just an optional ssh hop (if you needed to run some batch process, it had much lower connection latency) / ad-hoc reporting node / whatever you needed at that point.

I don't see anything wrong with running chat bots at that host - at least for internal services. It's a bit different if you wanted to connect to public IRC servers, but it's not obvious from the post whether it was internal-only service or not.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#16
"It has been fascinating to watch the ongoing reactions. There have been complaints that we have too many bots in the channel now. There have been complaints about it spamming the channel. There were several “Make them shut up!” responses. These are not reactions I have seen the other bots elicit, certainly not with such intensity. One person even complained about the name being too long, though to his credit he realized right after he said that that several other people in the channel also have very long handles. To me, all of this seems like typical geek behaviour: something is making them uncomfortable, and so they attack it on “rational” grounds. Most likely, they aren’t even aware of the gut reaction fueling their logic."

This is excellently picked out: most of the disagreements over the term "sexism" hinge around this point. Stuff that doesn't bother you (that another poster here describes as being "tuned-out"), as a man, because your gender plays no part in your job, is experienced differently by your female colleagues, because their gender does. Their experience of seeing "that's what SHE said" (and the death by a thousand cuts of other gender policing) is just as distracting and annoying as the "that's what she really said" bot. If your reaction to this post is "the first one seems harmless but the second is really overstepping the line", please take a few minutes to consider how you would feel if everyone's reaction to that (and everything else you objected to) was "just lighten up".

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#17
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the one "funny" bot should be wasted on TWSS, which one of the team actively objects to? (And it is a waste: markov chain bots can provide moments of startling poetry. ",)

[deleted]

She SPECIFICALLY says that she's frustrated with how gendered the TWSS joke is:

> I took it for granted that everyone was familiar with the “That’s what she said,” joke, but a recent conversation with a consultant friend made me realize some industries don’t feature it on a daily basis. For those who haven’t heard it a million times, the idea is that when somebody says something that could remotely be turned into a sexual joke, e.g. “I’m trying to solve this problem but it’s really hard!” you say “That’s what SHE said,” in a lascivious tone.

And describing why she's satisfied with the bot's reaction:

> In any case, I feel that I have succeeded in constructively disrupting an aspect of my work culture that made me uncomfortable.

"Uncomfortable". Not "annoying".

You know that "ignoring what women say and explaining that they're really bothered by something else" is one of the most common responses that feminists have to deal with, right? And that it's disrespectful to suggest that there's a more "rational" explanation for why a woman's upset than that they feel uncomfortable about a sexist environment?

I mean, she says close to the beginning:

> I asked a number of times to have that bot function turned off, but got the usual combination of being ignored, being told it’s funny, and being told I should lighten up.

Emphasis mine. We just had a big ole conversation about that phrase like a week ago. Remember it?

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#18
post #4

I'm struggling to come up with an answer to this question: Has technology ever solved issues with social etiquette?

Sure, in much the same ways as such problems are solved in real life: if you can't get somebody to behave, he's thrown out. That's /kickban on IRC, for example.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#19
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the one "funny" bot should be wasted on TWSS, which one of the team actively objects to? (And it is a waste: markov chain bots can provide moments of startling poetry. ",)

[deleted]

I agree. And if that was the first bot to respond to a bot, I think it is irritating that men hate equality was the first conclusion.

Maybe those guys do hate equality, but from my perspective I would have been irritated by TWSS and then more irritated by the responder, I might then decide to complain before anyone else gets the bright idea to make another bot talking to a bot.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#20

sex·ist [sek-sist] adjective 1. pertaining to, involving, or fostering sexism: a sexist remark; sexist advertising. sex·ism [sek-siz-uhm] noun 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles. 2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women. I don't think the bot is exactly sexist. It's stupid…

IANA sociologist, but I'd consider TWSS (or the much rarer TWHS) one of those "undertones" types of biases like always asking the female co-worker to take notes or the male co-worker to help you move your desk.

Anyways, I think her response was a good one. I would hope that simply asking whoever was running it to shut it down would be sufficient, but I think writing a bot was a good way of making your point in a group of developers as a respectful way of saying "I'm part of this group and I have something to say".

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