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Downtowns are dead, dying or on life support, says urban policy expert

fortune.com

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Re: Downtowns are dead, dying or on life support, says urban policy expert

#11

Post by AnimalMuppet »

xcrunner529 wrote: post #6
thegrim33 wrote: post #4

Not a single sentence about crime, drug use, homelessness, etc., but they threw in a quote from the communist manifesto to take a political jab at "capitalism". A+ totally unbiased journalism here.

Did you really read the article? This is about office space and those reliant on office foot traffic. None of those things you mentioned are unique nor relevant here. Seems like you just wanted something to be true to fit what you see on Fox News. “older, denser downtowns reliant on professional or tech workers and located within large metros”

Are you saying that "office foot traffic" is unaffected by encounters with crime, homeless people and drug users? Seems to me perfectly reasonable that those things would decrease office foot traffic.

Or are you claiming that those things don't exist (in any quantity that matters) in the downtowns of most cities?

Re: Downtowns are dead, dying or on life support, says urban policy expert

#12

Post by hotpotamus »

pizzafeelsright wrote: post #7
thegrim33 wrote: post #4

Not a single sentence about crime, drug use, homelessness, etc., but they threw in a quote from the communist manifesto to take a political jab at "capitalism". A+ totally unbiased journalism here.

No way am I going downtown anymore. Walking over a dead body on my way to work was enough for me to never return to the office. If the city doesn't enforce the laws on the books yet will hold me accountable for defending myself when the police won't I am not putting myself in a position to answer for laws against the lawlessness. I didn't mind after midnight crime when I lived downtown. It's now high noon crime with…

I'd think it would be more respectful to walk around a body rather than over it. You'd probably also want to ensure the authorities are aware.

Re: Downtowns are dead, dying or on life support, says urban policy expert

#13

Post by DoreenMichele »

It seems very likely that one reason downtowns have so much office space is because it's employment that's inoffensive in terms of city planning and zoning while potentially promising good salaries historically more associated with noisy, polluting industrial spaces.

I remember seeing an article where someone was against zoning that completely eliminated industrial uses in their town or something. She felt that it was possible to allow for clean industry without ruining the environment, but that's harder to regulate. It's easier to say "Nope. No industry. It's dirty and polluting." than to have regulations which allow for industry but require it to meet certain standards of air quality, etc.

She lost. The zoning or regulatory changes she was against went through.

Re: Downtowns are dead, dying or on life support, says urban policy expert

#14

Post by eli_gottlieb »

So basically the urban cores overbuilt office space relative to housing for four decades and now remote work has catastrophically reminded urban landowners that if nobody actually lives somewhere, you do need to convince people to commute in if you want to run a business there.

Re: Downtowns are dead, dying or on life support, says urban policy expert

#15

Post by gottorf »

kylecazar wrote: post #10

COVID really messed up the improvements made to NYC's FiDi over the past decade.

I think it's important to distinguish between Covid and the absolutely irrational public policy response to Covid, because the latter is what really threw downtowns off. Pandemics will happen again; lockdowns don't need to, if we learn.

Re: Downtowns are dead, dying or on life support, says urban policy expert

#16

Post by RoyalHenOil »

gottorf wrote: post #15
kylecazar wrote: post #10

COVID really messed up the improvements made to NYC's FiDi over the past decade.

I think it's important to distinguish between Covid and the absolutely irrational public policy response to Covid, because the latter is what really threw downtowns off. Pandemics will happen again; lockdowns don't need to, if we learn.

We won't learn. On the contrary, we have actually become stupider about handling disease: Hospitals are even more understaffed now than they were before the pandemic, and anti-vaccine hysteria has gone mainstream.

If we get hit with another major pandemic in the relatively near future, we will be even less prepared for it now than we were with Covid, and I predict our lockdowns will be even worse because of it.

Re: Downtowns are dead, dying or on life support, says urban policy expert

#18

Post by gottorf »

RoyalHenOil wrote: post #16
gottorf wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's important to distinguish between Covid and the absolutely irrational public policy response to Covid, because the latter is what really threw downtowns off. Pandemics will happen again; lockdowns don't need to, if we learn.

We won't learn. On the contrary, we have actually become stupider about handling disease: Hospitals are even more understaffed now than they were before the pandemic, and anti-vaccine hysteria has gone mainstream. If we get hit with another major pandemic in the relatively near future, we will be even less prepared for it now than we were with Covid, and I predict our lockdowns will be even worse because of it.

> Hospitals are even more understaffed now than they were before the pandemic

BLS doesn't agree with you[0]. After a big drop with Covid, when a bunch of older hospital workers decided it would be a good time to retire, the employment number matched pre-Covid figures by late 2022, and exceeds it now.

> anti-vaccine hysteria has gone mainstream

Rates of typical childhood vaccination (like MMR, DTaP, etc.) dipped only a little, from 95% pre-pandemic to 93% in 2023[1], so there's no evidence to suggest that anti-vaccine hysteria is "mainstream". And I would wager that the 2% difference can be largely attributed to, again, the poor public health policy choices surrounding Covid.

[0]: https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES6562200001?amp%253bdata_t...

[1]: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/headed-...

Re: Downtowns are dead, dying or on life support, says urban policy expert

#19

Post by dragonwriter »

gottorf wrote: post #18
RoyalHenOil wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We won't learn. On the contrary, we have actually become stupider about handling disease: Hospitals are even more understaffed now than they were before the pandemic, and anti-vaccine hysteria has gone mainstream. If we get hit with another major pandemic in the relatively near future, we will be even less prepared for it now than we were with Covid, and I predict our lockdowns will be even worse because of it.

> Hospitals are even more understaffed now than they were before the pandemic BLS doesn't agree with you[0]. After a big drop with Covid, when a bunch of older hospital workers decided it would be a good time to retire, the employment number matched pre-Covid figures by late 2022, and exceeds it now. > anti-vaccine hysteria has gone mainstream Rates of typical childhood vaccination (like MMR, DTaP, etc.) dipped only…

> > Hospitals are even more understaffed now than they were before the pandemic

> BLS doesn't agree with you[0]. After a big drop with Covid, when a bunch of older hospital workers decided it would be a good time to retire, the employment number matched pre-Covid figures by late 2022, and exceeds it now.

If demand is higher for care, they could have more total employment and still be more understaffed.

Re: Downtowns are dead, dying or on life support, says urban policy expert

#20

Post by gottorf »

dragonwriter wrote: post #19
gottorf wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hospitals are even more understaffed now than they were before the pandemic BLS doesn't agree with you[0]. After a big drop with Covid, when a bunch of older hospital workers decided it would be a good time to retire, the employment number matched pre-Covid figures by late 2022, and exceeds it now. > anti-vaccine hysteria has gone mainstream Rates of typical childhood vaccination (like MMR, DTaP, etc.) dipped only…

> > Hospitals are even more understaffed now than they were before the pandemic > BLS doesn't agree with you[0]. After a big drop with Covid, when a bunch of older hospital workers decided it would be a good time to retire, the employment number matched pre-Covid figures by late 2022, and exceeds it now. If demand is higher for care, they could have more total employment and still be more understaffed.

Good point. I wonder if there is data for that. Maybe the number of insurance claims?
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