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‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#11

Post by csomar »

totetsu wrote: post #2

When ever I see something like this I can’t help but wonder if it would have happened if EU and America hadn’t assassinated Gaddafi. I know that’s kind of a knee jerk reaction, but really what is happening in lybia now? What’s the plan? Protect the oil pipelines and just don’t look too close anymore?

It's not clear. His son seemed to be heading, at the time, for a middle-east style re-construction of the country. He essentially replaced his father but the revolution didn't let anything materialize as it happened shortly after that. He still has significant support: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/12/2/libya-court-reinsta...

> what is happening in lybia now?

Nothing much. But a big problem of lack of governance is that critical infrastructure (like dams) gets neglected.

> What’s the plan?

No plans.

> Protect the oil pipelines and just don’t look too close anymore?

Clearly doesn't work but no one wanted this situation except for some people located across the Atlantic.

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#12

Post by mcv »

PedroBatista wrote: post #9
totetsu wrote: post #2

When ever I see something like this I can’t help but wonder if it would have happened if EU and America hadn’t assassinated Gaddafi. I know that’s kind of a knee jerk reaction, but really what is happening in lybia now? What’s the plan? Protect the oil pipelines and just don’t look too close anymore?

The "EU and America" didn't assassinate Gaddafi. If the "alternate reality" didn't already erased it, you may recall something called "Arab Spring". It's not like Gaddafi was in a stable position at the time, and even less likely he would skate the whole situation until today. Gaddafi was "assassinated" because there was a full-on civil war and the EU and America bombed the massive convoy he had sent to crush the reb…

Exactly. If the EU and US hadn't stopped Gaddafi from killing his own people, the tragedy would also have been terrible. Worse than now? Better than now? Should they have known? It's impossible to say.

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#13

Post by penneallagricia »

mcv wrote: post #12
PedroBatista wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "EU and America" didn't assassinate Gaddafi. If the "alternate reality" didn't already erased it, you may recall something called "Arab Spring". It's not like Gaddafi was in a stable position at the time, and even less likely he would skate the whole situation until today. Gaddafi was "assassinated" because there was a full-on civil war and the EU and America bombed the massive convoy he had sent to crush the reb…

Exactly. If the EU and US hadn't stopped Gaddafi from killing his own people, the tragedy would also have been terrible. Worse than now? Better than now? Should they have known? It's impossible to say.

If its impossible to say, then why intervene? If you can't prove that bombing will have net positive effects then why do it?

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#14

Post by csomar »

sokoloff wrote: post #6
_ph_ wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression is, that Libya is at least split into two major factions and as they are bound in their internal conflict there is no international politic any more. Which conveniently allowed the west to mostly forget about Libya. I saw a heartbreaking report about the disaster region yesterday. One interesting aspect were hints that this disaster might have stimulated more cooperation inside Libya. May be this is a s…

The US experienced a significant unifying force 22 years and 4 days ago. The effect was very clearly only temporary.

Last time I visited the US, the TSA still exists. Pretty sure the effects have remained. Not sure about the "unifying force" fantasy though.

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#15

Post by weard_beard »

csomar wrote: post #11
totetsu wrote: post #2

When ever I see something like this I can’t help but wonder if it would have happened if EU and America hadn’t assassinated Gaddafi. I know that’s kind of a knee jerk reaction, but really what is happening in lybia now? What’s the plan? Protect the oil pipelines and just don’t look too close anymore?

It's not clear. His son seemed to be heading, at the time, for a middle-east style re-construction of the country. He essentially replaced his father but the revolution didn't let anything materialize as it happened shortly after that. He still has significant support: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/12/2/libya-court-reinsta... > what is happening in lybia now? Nothing much. But a big problem of lack of governanc…

Why be cryptic? We all know it’s the French we’re talking about.

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#16

Post by _Algernon_ »

penneallagricia wrote: post #13
mcv wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. If the EU and US hadn't stopped Gaddafi from killing his own people, the tragedy would also have been terrible. Worse than now? Better than now? Should they have known? It's impossible to say.

If its impossible to say, then why intervene? If you can't prove that bombing will have net positive effects then why do it?

Is omniscience a prerequisite to reacting? Nothing would ever get done then.

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#17

Post by mhalberstram »

weard_beard wrote: post #15
csomar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear. His son seemed to be heading, at the time, for a middle-east style re-construction of the country. He essentially replaced his father but the revolution didn't let anything materialize as it happened shortly after that. He still has significant support: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/12/2/libya-court-reinsta... > what is happening in lybia now? Nothing much. But a big problem of lack of governanc…

Why be cryptic? We all know it’s the French we’re talking about.

Something that might be relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Libyan_financing_in_th...

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#18

Post by misja111 »

totetsu wrote: post #2

When ever I see something like this I can’t help but wonder if it would have happened if EU and America hadn’t assassinated Gaddafi. I know that’s kind of a knee jerk reaction, but really what is happening in lybia now? What’s the plan? Protect the oil pipelines and just don’t look too close anymore?

> .. if EU and America hadn’t assassinated Gaddafi

Gaddafi was assassinated by his own people. America and a few European countries gave military support to the rebels after Gaddafi had started trying to violently suppress the rebellion of his people, that is true. If they wouldn't have done that, he might have succeeded in murdering enough of his people to stay in power, who knows.

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#19

Post by mschuster91 »

totetsu wrote: post #2

When ever I see something like this I can’t help but wonder if it would have happened if EU and America hadn’t assassinated Gaddafi. I know that’s kind of a knee jerk reaction, but really what is happening in lybia now? What’s the plan? Protect the oil pipelines and just don’t look too close anymore?

> When ever I see something like this I can’t help but wonder if it would have happened if EU and America hadn’t assassinated Gaddafi.

Gaddafi would have died sooner or later anyway, and he was a kleptocrat like all other dictators were and are.

> but really what is happening in lybia now? What’s the plan? Protect the oil pipelines and just don’t look too close anymore?

What would be needed is an intervention force that takes over the entire country and stabilizes it similar to the current setup in Bosnia and Kosovo - the warlords are in a stalemate. The problem is, NATO is too busy with Ukraine (and even that engagement is sadly controversial enough despite there being no troops involved), the US wants to focus on China, Europe can't be arsed to actually do anything (not that we could, we can't even supply Ukraine without seriously endangering the capabilities of our own armies), the French are even more reviled than Islamists are in Africa (see the recent putsches), the African Union is more of a paper tiger that's additionally focusing on the before-mentioned putsches, and China doesn't care as it's not part of their New Belt Road.

And even assuming that there would be someone interested in intervening in that shitshow, they won't get the UNSC mandate required for that, as either Russia or the US will veto such an operation.

The only way that any troops will deal with Libya is when Islamists make a resurgence because that is about the only threat that neither the US, Russia nor China really want to be able to rise.

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#20

Post by thriftwy »

PedroBatista wrote: post #9
totetsu wrote: post #2

When ever I see something like this I can’t help but wonder if it would have happened if EU and America hadn’t assassinated Gaddafi. I know that’s kind of a knee jerk reaction, but really what is happening in lybia now? What’s the plan? Protect the oil pipelines and just don’t look too close anymore?

The "EU and America" didn't assassinate Gaddafi. If the "alternate reality" didn't already erased it, you may recall something called "Arab Spring". It's not like Gaddafi was in a stable position at the time, and even less likely he would skate the whole situation until today. Gaddafi was "assassinated" because there was a full-on civil war and the EU and America bombed the massive convoy he had sent to crush the reb…

EU/US has supported a rebellion in Lybia (equals created a rebellion in Lybia) and then used direct military force to topple Lybian regime.

I'm not even sure who administered the city which was crushed by the flood in 2023 considering the free-for-all in Lybia ever since.

As usual with Western-induced rebellions, everybody ended up losing. I'm also not sure why you are confident that Gaffafi was going to "obliterate the civilians" (read - his own citizens).

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