I'd Love to Move, but I Can't • Hacker News Board

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#11

Post by grantheaslip » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 2:13 PM UTC

tseabrooks wrote: post #2

I'm 27 so I think I'm just a couple years outside of this generation that can't find jobs. That said, I'm pretty sick and damned tired of seeing lists of things keeping these 20-somethings from succeeding. It's time for people to man up (Though I'm not excluding women) and take responsibility for themselves and stop complaining about externalities keeping them from success and just go out and succeed. The problem isn…

That kind of mindset is a lot easier to espouse when you (and a lot of the visitors to this site) are in one of the few industries that wasn't particularly affected by the recession, and for that matter is arguably in the midst of a bubble.

We're all lucky -- if your chosen profession (and, say, one that you invested 8+ years of expensive American college to get into) was an industry that had the air sucked out of it in 2008, you might not be so condescending.

I do get what you're saying, and I think there definitely is a type of person you're describing, but you're oversimplifying a measurably more complicated problem.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#12

Post by roc » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 2:13 PM UTC

tseabrooks wrote: post #2

I'm 27 so I think I'm just a couple years outside of this generation that can't find jobs. That said, I'm pretty sick and damned tired of seeing lists of things keeping these 20-somethings from succeeding. It's time for people to man up (Though I'm not excluding women) and take responsibility for themselves and stop complaining about externalities keeping them from success and just go out and succeed. The problem isn…

To be fair, the drop in economic activity necessarily means that everyone can not simply tug harder on their boot straps. Could most individuals do more? Possibly. But it would only deliver improved outcomes if they're doing more relative to everyone else.

It's rather the definition of the slump we're in: the economy as a whole is spending less and taking fewer risks. So no matter what they do, there are only so many jobs. No matter how many of them start their own businesses, there is only so much spending going on.

And while it's obvious and correct that perspective- and attitude-adjustments can only help and that whining and blaming never does, to think that a run of life like that won't have eroded people's attitude and outlook is something between naive and crass.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#13

Post by funkah » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 2:17 PM UTC

tseabrooks wrote: post #2

I'm 27 so I think I'm just a couple years outside of this generation that can't find jobs. That said, I'm pretty sick and damned tired of seeing lists of things keeping these 20-somethings from succeeding. It's time for people to man up (Though I'm not excluding women) and take responsibility for themselves and stop complaining about externalities keeping them from success and just go out and succeed. The problem isn…

One one hand I agree, on the other I sometimes feel like Indiana Jones outrunning the boulder -- I had a head start so I didn't get crushed, and they did. I don't have much quantitative reasoning for that feeling, I suppose, it's just that I started my career in 2004 when the economy had briefly recovered before going into the shitter for good. People I know who got out of school just a year before me had a noticeably harder time getting jobs because the economy was still rough in 2003, and it impacted their careers pretty seriously. And now it seems like everyone trying to start a career are in a battle royale for table scraps.

So, I agree that "woe is me" won't get you anywhere, but also everything is fucked-up and on fire. Thank goodness for software, though I doubt this ride will last much longer either. Someone will find a way to cut our cost out of the equation for good.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#14

Post by DanI-S » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 2:17 PM UTC

It seems almost the opposite in the UK. Out of my original group of home town friends (from a pretty even mix of low and high income backgrounds), very few people haven't moved at least to another city. A large number of us have actually emigrated, at least temporarily.

The modern, British means of surviving an economic downturn without going crazy seems to be doing a Teaching English as a Foreign Language course somewhere far away and interesting.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#15

Post by ryaf » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 2:17 PM UTC

tseabrooks wrote: post #2

I'm 27 so I think I'm just a couple years outside of this generation that can't find jobs. That said, I'm pretty sick and damned tired of seeing lists of things keeping these 20-somethings from succeeding. It's time for people to man up (Though I'm not excluding women) and take responsibility for themselves and stop complaining about externalities keeping them from success and just go out and succeed. The problem isn…

This. I'm 26 and I had a decent paying software job in Florida. But I wanted to move up to New York so I convinced my job to let me work remotely. I made the move 2 months after they allowed me to work remotely. I sold a bunch of my possessions, made sure everything could fit into my car, gave away my furniture to my mom, and did the entire move for around $800 of my own money. (I had a place to stay when I got up here)

So I agree. These people sound foolish. It is entirely possible to move but that means getting rid of shit and people do not want to get rid of their shit. It's a bit sad really.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#16

Post by csomar » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 2:18 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #5

tseabrooks wrote: post #2

I'm 27 so I think I'm just a couple years outside of this generation that can't find jobs. That said, I'm pretty sick and damned tired of seeing lists of things keeping these 20-somethings from succeeding. It's time for people to man up (Though I'm not excluding women) and take responsibility for themselves and stop complaining about externalities keeping them from success and just go out and succeed. The problem isn…

Telling people to "stop whining" isn't that constructive. I was unemployed about 5 years ago before the recession had really dug it's teeth in and even then it was tough. Spending days applying for every posting I was vaguely qualified for online and also physically hitting the pavement and handing out my CV to every business on the street. Also having to make decisions about whether it was better to get my suit dry-…

I would stop from applying after the 10th time. If you failed to get a job in 3-4 applications, something is wrong about your CV, presentation, or you. There is something wrong, it's your responsibility to fix it and try again.

Personally, I won't say to a candidate you SUCK or you did that thing the wrong way. I'll just apologize that another candidate took the position.

Advice from someone who was there: Go and build a network. Get the job from the network.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#17

Post by jiggy2011 » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 2:20 PM UTC

tmh88j wrote: post #10

tseabrooks wrote: post #2

I'm 27 so I think I'm just a couple years outside of this generation that can't find jobs. That said, I'm pretty sick and damned tired of seeing lists of things keeping these 20-somethings from succeeding. It's time for people to man up (Though I'm not excluding women) and take responsibility for themselves and stop complaining about externalities keeping them from success and just go out and succeed. The problem isn…

>stop complaining about externalities keeping them from success and just go out and succeed. The majority of people do not want to be entrepreneurs so their only option is to work for someone else where you are faced with more external forces. When you're in that situation, most people want to do the minimum and earn the maximum which we know rarely works. Let's face it, being an entrepreneur is not for everyone. It'…

Not to mention the costs associated with beginning a business on your own. Of course this varies a lot depending on the business too.

Even for say doing some freelance programming which has low costs since all you need is a computer and some open source software. As soon as you start your business you will be cut off from government benefits so you will not have any income until you get your first payment.

Since most companies interested in hiring you for a job will not want to pay you up front since as a new business your going to be seen as pretty high risk your going to need a way of covering your living costs for at least 2-3 months most likely.

If your fresh out of college and already riddled with debt the chances that you have those kind of savings in the bank is pretty minimal.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#18

Post by true_religion » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 2:22 PM UTC

tmh88j wrote: post #10

tseabrooks wrote: post #2

I'm 27 so I think I'm just a couple years outside of this generation that can't find jobs. That said, I'm pretty sick and damned tired of seeing lists of things keeping these 20-somethings from succeeding. It's time for people to man up (Though I'm not excluding women) and take responsibility for themselves and stop complaining about externalities keeping them from success and just go out and succeed. The problem isn…

>stop complaining about externalities keeping them from success and just go out and succeed. The majority of people do not want to be entrepreneurs so their only option is to work for someone else where you are faced with more external forces. When you're in that situation, most people want to do the minimum and earn the maximum which we know rarely works. Let's face it, being an entrepreneur is not for everyone. It'…

Small business (or as call it "cottage industry") was the way many people survived in cities before the industrial revolution hit it stride.

I don't believe its beyond the capabilities of mere mortals today to do.

What people dislike about entrepreneurship is the search for something to sell to people. On the otherhand, many would prefer working for themselves if it could pay, and they had a clearly defined role to slip into.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#19

Post by randombit » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 2:27 PM UTC

tmh88j wrote: post #10

tseabrooks wrote: post #2

I'm 27 so I think I'm just a couple years outside of this generation that can't find jobs. That said, I'm pretty sick and damned tired of seeing lists of things keeping these 20-somethings from succeeding. It's time for people to man up (Though I'm not excluding women) and take responsibility for themselves and stop complaining about externalities keeping them from success and just go out and succeed. The problem isn…

>stop complaining about externalities keeping them from success and just go out and succeed. The majority of people do not want to be entrepreneurs so their only option is to work for someone else where you are faced with more external forces. When you're in that situation, most people want to do the minimum and earn the maximum which we know rarely works. Let's face it, being an entrepreneur is not for everyone. It'…

> Let's face it, being an entrepreneur is not for everyone. > It's a lot of work and responsibility; something the > majority of 20-somethings can't handle.

It's easy to forget that software is probably the least capital intensive industry that's open to a lone entrepreneur. Think about someone wanting to start, say, a basic small bakery operation. My wife did this, and the capital costs necessary to just get started and make that first batch of sales - ingredients, packaging materials, special implements like decorating tips - could easily be enough to deter someone who has little capital to work with. (And we already had a good kitchen with the majority of tools one would need). It's one thing to risk a month of time when you're otherwise idle, it's another to risk next month's rent payment as well.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#20

Post by jiggy2011 » Fri, Mar 16, 2012, 2:29 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #16

jiggy2011 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telling people to "stop whining" isn't that constructive. I was unemployed about 5 years ago before the recession had really dug it's teeth in and even then it was tough. Spending days applying for every posting I was vaguely qualified for online and also physically hitting the pavement and handing out my CV to every business on the street. Also having to make decisions about whether it was better to get my suit dry-…

I would stop from applying after the 10th time. If you failed to get a job in 3-4 applications, something is wrong about your CV, presentation, or you. There is something wrong, it's your responsibility to fix it and try again. Personally, I won't say to a candidate you SUCK or you did that thing the wrong way. I'll just apologize that another candidate took the position. Advice from someone who was there: Go and bui…

I must have rewritten my CV countless times during my job hunt at that point as well as having many people proof read it with me, I'm sure it was never perfect but I can be fairly confident that it was better put together than the majority of CVs floating around from unemployed people at the time.

Regarding presentation, I was always washed, wore the best suit I could afford and paid attention to body language what I was saying to people. Not sure what else I could have done, it's not like you can suddenly become a handsome , charismatic person on a whim.

There was also the issue that many jobs wouldn't accept a CV and would simply direct you to an online or paper application where everything had to be filled into discreet boxes and provided little opportunity to make yourself stand out.

Of course the networking advice is good, most of the jobs I have had have been through networking with people I knew and getting in that way. This is easier in some places than others of course, since I was living in an industrial town in england there was not exactly a thriving tech scene. More a small collection of freelancers and satellite offices from larger companies.

The majority of people there worked for the government in one way or anther too, where the only way to get those jobs is to fill out the application form.

It is not always obvious as to how to get an "in" if you don't already know people.