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Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

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Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#11

Post by toomuchtodo »

marcinzm wrote: post #2

This article misses the simple fact that the type of fellow students you have will impact how well you do as a student. Humans are social creatures and will influence each other's behavior. That's not even getting into negative pressure from things like bullying. edit: Also their point on the curriculum being similar misses the fact that the standard for doing well differs. Barely learning some material is different…

Stratification is inevitable but efforts to disintermediate lifetime quality of life from status (Ivy) is warranted (depending upon your viewpoint on merit).

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#12

Post by kneebonian »

No the problem goes thusly.

The university was a place of learning, education, and becoming a better person. It was focused on the pursuit of knowledge for the sake of knowledge.

Then it became noticed that smart educated people went to college, and so the idea then became if you went to college you to must be smart and educated.

Then because that was accepted as true many people saw college as the path to a better life. Then after WW2 because college was seen as the path to a better life the US Govt. decided that everyone should get the chance to go to college with the GI Bill.

Then college morphed from a place you went to learn to study and to understand to a place you go so you could get a job.

Then because that is why people were going colleges started optimizing as places to get a job.

Harvard became optimized for getting certain types of jobs, namely CEO, politician, etc, essentially seen as the jobs of "the elite". But remember for every person who went to Harvard and is now an overqualified CEO there are also 10 Andy Bernards out there.

So the whole purpose of the university and higher education has been gutted, as thanks to the introduction of the Business and Communications degrees you can actually be college educated while learning nothing of real value, or of beauty or science or anything that the traditional colleges existed to teach us.

As a final though I leave this article against Tulip Subsidies. https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/06/06/against-tulip-subsidie...

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#13

Post by thorel »

marcinzm wrote: post #2

This article misses the simple fact that the type of fellow students you have will impact how well you do as a student. Humans are social creatures and will influence each other's behavior. That's not even getting into negative pressure from things like bullying. edit: Also their point on the curriculum being similar misses the fact that the standard for doing well differs. Barely learning some material is different…

Isn't this what is suggested below the second picture?

> Really, it’s harder than this picture suggests, because many experiences are based on other students. If I want you as my project partner but you want to forget I exist, then something has to give.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#14

Post by DougN7 »

HPsquared wrote: post #3

There is always a ruling class. It's an emergent phenomenon which always reasserts itself after any upset. Basically a law of nature.

I agree. As long as there are personal differences in motivation, intelligence, energy level and moral compass, there will be classes of some sort or another.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#15

Post by a2xd94 »

The thing that gets me is that nearly every single podcast or article that talks about admissions and how fair/unfair they are focuses almost solely on Ivy League schools and leaves out the state and local colleges/universities that actually churn out 99% of college graduates in the US. Maybe we tax payers need to do better about steering the conversation towards those institutions that we fund as opposed to those that function almost solely in a closed legacy-admissions environment (regardless of what pretty/diverse narratives those schools would like to have us 'normies' believe).

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#17

Post by Xeoncross »

sugarpile wrote: post #4

It has fallen out of favor but I am a massive proponent for graduated drivers licenses. Free toll roads would be silly but higher/removed speed limits seem 100% ok to me as long as it's coupled with an actual assessment of driving ability, semi-frequent required reassessment, and stiffer penalties for things such as DUI when driving in the graduated speed limit range.

On a related note, I consider paying for toll roads to be a form of health insurance. I know the newest teen drivers out cruising with their friends aren't paying $6 to race each other down the toll road and likely crash with me.

I've seen some crazy stuff on the freeways and much safer driving on toll roads.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#18

Post by merth »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #8

I find the Harvard angst interesting. I’ve never once felt someone else going to Harvard impacted my life in any way whatsoever. I’ve advanced further than everyone I know that went to Harvard in my career and not once did someone wink at the Harvard guy and pass me over. I’m sure it happens, and I’m sure there are secret clubs I don’t get invited to (well the Harvard club is pretty nice and I was invited there by a…

probably nobody felt Salomon Brothers impacted their life but he changed your life more than Michael Jordan, the iPod and YouTube put together. -Big Short

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#19

Post by mapgrep »

Post made some good points but in the end it's pretty nihilistic to say that elite spaces shouldn't exist merely because they tend to cultivate elites and other elite spaces. Also very reductive to say that Harvard exists just to perpetuate elitism (no, it has a genuine educational and research mission, whatever its various flaws, that's patently clear).

The world is flawed and imperfect and perfect things don't really emerge from it. Harvard is glorious. Our best and oldest (in the US) university is bad because it's not sufficiently egalitarian, and let's destroy it? It's an engine for our society and other universities have followed in its footsteps. Stanford, Caltech, Rice, Berkeley, the Claremont schools, etc etc - none of these were in the original ivy league, all are imperfect to some extent in their admissions and embrace and fulfillment of egalitarian ideals. They are also glorious though. They make our country a dynamic, innovative, intellectually vibrant place and attract students from around the world. They absolutely are key to our (staggering) economic and cultural success (in the US).

Elite clubbiness is an unfortunate side effect of success, but it doesn't mean we should then intentionally obliterate the engine of that success out of distaste for the cose of it.

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