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Etsy accused of 'destroying' sellers by withholding money

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Etsy accused of 'destroying' sellers by withholding money

#11

Post by NoZebra120vClip »

_aavaa_ wrote: post #9
MertsA wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty standard for any sort of fraud prevention. You never tell people what triggered it because when it's not a false positive you're telling scammers what to avoid next time.

Ahh yes, the old security through obscurity.

No.

The security in fraud protection (or any detective control) is in the thresholds and triggers being activated and protecting the system.

Protecting the values of those controls is common sense. This is on a need-to-know basis. Users don't need to know.

If you advertise that your system will permit 9,999 transactions per minute, then every client will calibrate to max out at 9,999, malicious or not. Then, you adjust that up or down, and not everyone follows suit. Whoops!

Re: Etsy accused of 'destroying' sellers by withholding money

#12

Post by 6510 »

MertsA wrote: post #5
justinclift wrote: post #4

> Etsy told her it "isn't able to give... [a] specific reason" Sounds like it's probably some newly implemented "black box" (either AI or external vendor) solution that can't be probed or debugged. :(

That's pretty standard for any sort of fraud prevention. You never tell people what triggered it because when it's not a false positive you're telling scammers what to avoid next time.

The interesting part there is the seamless transition from seller/people to scammer. I believe the policy will eventually have to change to accommodate innocence until proven guilty.

There are some pretty dramatic stories out there with people getting unusual amounts of orders forcing them to buy unusual amounts of materials and do unusual amounts of work which creates an unusually full agenda and may drain finances to the edge... and then they don't get their money or the orders are refunded after delivery and they don't get proper assistance resolving the issue. "We wont tell you what you've done wrong because of reasons" is really the stuff you want to hear at that moment.

Not sure what the solution should be but I wouldn't want a role in that movie.

What is the problem usually? We don't know? How do you fix an unknown problem? If it is that someone is selling an unusually large amount it seems doable to limit the number of widgets they may sell in stead of platforms taking more orders they know cant be resolved.

Re: Etsy accused of 'destroying' sellers by withholding money

#13

Post by 6510 »

NoZebra120vClip wrote: post #11
_aavaa_ wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh yes, the old security through obscurity.

No. The security in fraud protection (or any detective control) is in the thresholds and triggers being activated and protecting the system. Protecting the values of those controls is common sense. This is on a need-to-know basis. Users don't need to know. If you advertise that your system will permit 9,999 transactions per minute, then every client will calibrate to max out at 9,999, malicious or not. Then, you adju…

What fraud? The dictionary says: "wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain."

Accusing people of fraud for personal gain seems like fraud to me. If it is beneficial for you to not disclose how the fraud works it seems we are talking about both deception and a false accusation - for personal gain? aka fraud?

Re: Etsy accused of 'destroying' sellers by withholding money

#14

Post by Spivak »

Georgelemental wrote: post #10
MertsA wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty standard for any sort of fraud prevention. You never tell people what triggered it because when it's not a false positive you're telling scammers what to avoid next time.

"The accused shall enjoy the right … to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him …"

Good thing Etsy isn't a government then.

Re: Etsy accused of 'destroying' sellers by withholding money

#15

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

rightbyte wrote: post #2

This is the problem with all these middlemen platforms. If you base your business around them you are at their mercy.

Agreed. I actually thought about it a lot lately mostly because I occasionally sell stuff on Ebay and the fees make me extra annoyed each time. Running a big enough market itself is a difficult task ( and if you want to sell in the entire US, this is effectively what you do ). Add to this taxes, refunds, fraud mitigation and all of a sudden you realize it is a big ask.

Still, I keep thinking about it, because I am sure it can be done in a way that does not make me want to start a new online marketplace each time..

Re: Etsy accused of 'destroying' sellers by withholding money

#16

Post by _aavaa_ »

NoZebra120vClip wrote: post #11
_aavaa_ wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh yes, the old security through obscurity.

No. The security in fraud protection (or any detective control) is in the thresholds and triggers being activated and protecting the system. Protecting the values of those controls is common sense. This is on a need-to-know basis. Users don't need to know. If you advertise that your system will permit 9,999 transactions per minute, then every client will calibrate to max out at 9,999, malicious or not. Then, you adju…

> Etsy told her it "isn't able to give... [a] specific reason"

This isn’t talking about the value of a threshold. This is talking about providing a reason at all.

Re: Etsy accused of 'destroying' sellers by withholding money

#18

Post by derbOac »

rightbyte wrote: post #2

This is the problem with all these middlemen platforms. If you base your business around them you are at their mercy.

I agree with you but also feel there should be enough competition in these services that a vendor can switch without undue cost if they feel wronged.

I sort of feel as if we're collectively deluding ourselves about the extent and number of monopolies in our current economy.

Re: Etsy accused of 'destroying' sellers by withholding money

#19

Post by toss1 »

justinclift wrote: post #4

> Etsy told her it "isn't able to give... [a] specific reason" Sounds like it's probably some newly implemented "black box" (either AI or external vendor) solution that can't be probed or debugged. :(

Maybe, and Hanlon's Razor say's your right ('don't attribute malice where incompetence can explain it').

But it seems here mor like Hanlon's Razor is a handy cover for the fact that interest rates are up, which makes it more enticing for Etsy management to steal their sellers' funds and rake off the interest yield under a flimsy and obscure excuse.

Sure, it's only £800 here and £7000 there, but do it a few 10,000 times, and it'll yield material-to-the-bottom-line cash, and nevermind that it hurts the victims more than it benefits them.

IOW, it is just corporate theft because they can get away with it.

Re: Etsy accused of 'destroying' sellers by withholding money

#20

Post by tjpnz »

MertsA wrote: post #5
justinclift wrote: post #4

> Etsy told her it "isn't able to give... [a] specific reason" Sounds like it's probably some newly implemented "black box" (either AI or external vendor) solution that can't be probed or debugged. :(

That's pretty standard for any sort of fraud prevention. You never tell people what triggered it because when it's not a false positive you're telling scammers what to avoid next time.

That's a tired and frankly ignorant excuse. An experienced fraudster will in most cases know full well what happened, and if they don't it won't take them long to put together some theories and test them. The "no reason" routine is to shelter the company from legal liability.
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