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Re: undefined

#11

Post by salamiboy » Sat, Jul 29, 2023, 3:19 AM UTC

version_five wrote: post #6

claytongulick wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like much of the pressure for having fewer / no kids comes from financial stresses. It's very difficult to have a single income family with kids. It's very difficult to raise kids with both parents working.

Poor people have more kids. Look at developing countries especially. Low fertility is a problem of the affluent. That's part of why I say I think it's cultural, it's seen as such a negative (including as a financial burden) instead of as a positive thing to be aspired to, at least that's what's pushed on younger people.

That's no longer seem to be the case in the US, especially as out of wedlock births decreased and poor people are less likely to get married

https://ifstudies.org/blog/no-ring-no-baby

Re: undefined

#12

Post by sneed_chucker » Sat, Jul 29, 2023, 3:32 AM UTC

claytongulick wrote: post #5

version_five wrote: post #2

I'm trying to think what would have pushed me and people I know to have more kids. I'm not convinced that more social services is the most important thing. We've been indoctrinated since before high school that getting pregnant is a negative outcome. A lot of society, especially middle class and above really down weights having kids as a priority until people are old enough to push for it themselves. So you have ever…

Seems like much of the pressure for having fewer / no kids comes from financial stresses. It's very difficult to have a single income family with kids. It's very difficult to raise kids with both parents working.

I don't buy this argument.

Historically, people in the countries that now have low fertility rates were much poorer and yet were having far more children.

In fact, the countries with the highest fertility rates globally are very poor.

Re: undefined

#13

Post by Timon3 » Sat, Jul 29, 2023, 9:16 AM UTC

sneed_chucker wrote: post #12

claytongulick wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like much of the pressure for having fewer / no kids comes from financial stresses. It's very difficult to have a single income family with kids. It's very difficult to raise kids with both parents working.

I don't buy this argument. Historically, people in the countries that now have low fertility rates were much poorer and yet were having far more children. In fact, the countries with the highest fertility rates globally are very poor.

Historically, poor people's children started being "profitable" (as in doing more work than they take) much more quickly - they were raised communally (spreading the required work evenly), and they started working and helping earlier. This made having many children a legitimate strategy to deal with poverty. This has completely turned around - community is almost non-existent, and children will really only be "profitable" once they are adults.

The situations are simply too different for your argument to make sense.

Re: undefined

#14

Post by sneed_chucker » Sat, Jul 29, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

Timon3 wrote: post #13

sneed_chucker wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy this argument. Historically, people in the countries that now have low fertility rates were much poorer and yet were having far more children. In fact, the countries with the highest fertility rates globally are very poor.

Historically, poor people's children started being "profitable" (as in doing more work than they take) much more quickly - they were raised communally (spreading the required work evenly), and they started working and helping earlier. This made having many children a legitimate strategy to deal with poverty. This has completely turned around - community is almost non-existent, and children will really only be "profit…

Fair point, but I think you also overestimate how many people make decisions using actual cost-benefit analysis.