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Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made

theconvivialsociety.substack.com

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Re: Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made

#11

Post by s1artibartfast »

coderintherye wrote: post #7

I think you can apply the author's thinking to also looking at how our societal and economic outcomes relate to our circumstances of birth. People want to delude themselves into believing they succeeded from "hard work" where others were lazy rather than recognizing that had another seed been planted in your place and nurtured with the same resources (or lack thereof) it'd probably have equal chances of having surpas…

How do you find that this relates to the article? Do you really think that hard work as a concept is a delusion?

Buy your own metaphor, a different seed planted and nurtured the same has a chance of success or failure. The fact that chances at all implies that the seed matters and not just the environment, otherwise any seed would be expected to have an identical outcome.

To speak plainly, children from the same parents with the same opportunities can and do have drastically different lives.

The crookedness the article speaks of is unpredictable and unique to every tree. Seeds planted in an orchard of the same soil do not produce identical trees

Re: Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made

#12

Post by s1artibartfast »

nologic01 wrote: post #6

Wonderful post. I have this loose hypothesis that stacking a lot of crooked timber builds something that you could almost call straight. But it takes time and it may not be stable. In any case if biology gives you crooked timber you better become an expert carpender.

Conversely, a structure of crooked Timbers may be stronger due to its irregularity, it is just more difficult to understand and defies engineering.

I'm reminded of Inca temples with a irregular stones, which due to their differences make the structure more resistant to earthquakes. I'm also reminded of biological diversity and variation, which enable species to evolve and adapt.

If you want to get technical, think of the thousands of crooked proteins that make up our bodies, each with their unique properties, behaviors, and functions. Not even a proto-cell can be built with a uniform materials, only viruses and prions are identical.

Re: Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made

#13

Post by s1artibartfast »

whatshisface wrote: post #10
coderintherye wrote: post #7

I think you can apply the author's thinking to also looking at how our societal and economic outcomes relate to our circumstances of birth. People want to delude themselves into believing they succeeded from "hard work" where others were lazy rather than recognizing that had another seed been planted in your place and nurtured with the same resources (or lack thereof) it'd probably have equal chances of having surpas…

People still deserve credit or blame for their actions even if some percentage within their demographic will do more than them and some percentage will end up in jail. (Whether you deserve any credit for making money is another question...)

Indeed, even if you take a completely deterministic view of human behavior, you still have different people at the end of the day.

Someone fated by circumstance to commit murder, is still a person that murders others. Someone fated by circumstance to saves lives is still saving lives.

You have to figure out if you want to treat these people differently, even if you dont blame them for the things they do.

Re: Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made

#14

Post by s1artibartfast »

renewiltord wrote: post #8

Sympathize with view in article. But straight things can be made from crookedness. Classic example: Single cake. Two crooked children. Greedy. But rule is one cuts; other chooses. Perhaps argue that humanity stripped. I think not. Of course, meta-problem: how to ensure that is technique? How to ensure exploitation of technique: "you cut" (because I know you can't cut straight). Still, meaningless for technocrat to fe…

I think the author would agree with you based on their conclusion:

>... we can imagine that our crookedness likewise reflects our history: the communities we’ve belonged to, the friends we’ve made and lost, the chance happenings, heartbreaks, losses, and triumphs, the stories we’ve internalized about the world and about ourselves. All that has pulled and tugged on us, worn us down, nurtured us, broken us, and lifted us up. That is our crookedness. The crookedness we must learn to love within ourselves and in one another.

Re: Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made

#15

Post by sdwr »

dang wrote: post #4

I've replaced the baity word "crookedness", which was likely to lead to uninteresting associations and arguments, with the phrase "crooked timber" (from Kant) that the article itself mostly uses. I know it's pretentious, but in a case like this, having the title be a bit of an obstacle is probably a good thing - and at least I didn't make it say "Embrace your crooked timber of humanity". Edit: never mind I've got a b…

Crooked is a bait?

I read the original quote

> “You shall love your crooked neighbor / With your crooked heart.”

as splitting the difference between physically uneven and morally flawed. Selfishness - we put ourselves first in our heart, tipping the scales in ways that are more obvious to others.

Re: Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made

#16

Post by gochi »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #11
coderintherye wrote: post #7

I think you can apply the author's thinking to also looking at how our societal and economic outcomes relate to our circumstances of birth. People want to delude themselves into believing they succeeded from "hard work" where others were lazy rather than recognizing that had another seed been planted in your place and nurtured with the same resources (or lack thereof) it'd probably have equal chances of having surpas…

How do you find that this relates to the article? Do you really think that hard work as a concept is a delusion? Buy your own metaphor, a different seed planted and nurtured the same has a chance of success or failure. The fact that chances at all implies that the seed matters and not just the environment, otherwise any seed would be expected to have an identical outcome. To speak plainly, children from the same pare…

>To speak plainly, children from the same parents with the same opportunities can and do have drastically different lives.

But children do not have the same parents. Not unless they are twins. Parents treat each child differently. This is common knowledge, expected even. This is why outcomes are so drastically different, not because of the "seed" but because everything else has changed alongside the seed.

Ask the oldest child of a family how they view each of their parents. Ask the youngest. They often see such different people. This is exaggerated in families where addiction was overcome for example, where the first child grew up without a loving home, and the last grew up experiencing parents that finally figured out how to love.

You can see how even the tiniest of changes affects this, and why "same parents same opportunities" doesn't apply to most, again excluding twins.

Re: Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made

#17

Post by s1artibartfast »

gochi wrote: post #16
s1artibartfast wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you find that this relates to the article? Do you really think that hard work as a concept is a delusion? Buy your own metaphor, a different seed planted and nurtured the same has a chance of success or failure. The fact that chances at all implies that the seed matters and not just the environment, otherwise any seed would be expected to have an identical outcome. To speak plainly, children from the same pare…

>To speak plainly, children from the same parents with the same opportunities can and do have drastically different lives. But children do not have the same parents. Not unless they are twins. Parents treat each child differently. This is common knowledge, expected even. This is why outcomes are so drastically different, not because of the "seed" but because everything else has changed alongside the seed. Ask the old…

Yes there are different environmental factors in families. But that doesn't negate the fact that there's differences in individuals as well. Some people literally come out of the womb mentally handicapped or gifted or anywhere between. To talk things up 100% to environment for capability is a silly as saying height is 100% environment. It's unscientific and putting one's head in the sand. It is one factor but not the only Factor.

Re: Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made

#18

Post by dang »

sdwr wrote: post #15
dang wrote: post #4

I've replaced the baity word "crookedness", which was likely to lead to uninteresting associations and arguments, with the phrase "crooked timber" (from Kant) that the article itself mostly uses. I know it's pretentious, but in a case like this, having the title be a bit of an obstacle is probably a good thing - and at least I didn't make it say "Embrace your crooked timber of humanity". Edit: never mind I've got a b…

Crooked is a bait? I read the original quote > “You shall love your crooked neighbor / With your crooked heart.” as splitting the difference between physically uneven and morally flawed. Selfishness - we put ourselves first in our heart, tipping the scales in ways that are more obvious to others.

It's not bait in the hands of an Auden! but it is in an internet title.

Re: Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made

#19

Post by dang »

renewiltord wrote: post #8

Sympathize with view in article. But straight things can be made from crookedness. Classic example: Single cake. Two crooked children. Greedy. But rule is one cuts; other chooses. Perhaps argue that humanity stripped. I think not. Of course, meta-problem: how to ensure that is technique? How to ensure exploitation of technique: "you cut" (because I know you can't cut straight). Still, meaningless for technocrat to fe…

> Single cake. Two crooked children. Greedy. But rule is one cuts; other chooses.

Unlike a lot of more complex models, that one really works in practice. Game theory rises to the level of Solomon. Has it ever failed?

Re: Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made

#20

Post by jongjong »

The sad part is that there are plenty of good people. The problem comes down to the system itself. The system selects for crookedness and propagates it.

Evil always has the upper hand in controlling the system because evil people have access to a far broader range of tools and techniques to achieve their goals since they don't need to concern themselves with moral or even legal hurdles. Evil can pull the trigger with ease whereas good hesitates; that's why evil has the upper hand.

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