Live data from Hacker News

An invariant from category theory solves a problem in mathematical ecology [pdf]

maths.ed.ac.uk

11–20 of 34 posts

Re: An invariant from category theory solves a problem in mathematical ecology [pdf]

#11
I found the paper easier to follow than the slides: https://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~tl/mdiss.pdf

(Less emphasis of the category theory, and more attention to the basic math behind entropy-like diversity measures)

(TLDR) There are two important aspects:

1. Generalize diversity measures to when the categories are not fully distinct (as assumed for the Shannon entropy calculation) but have similarities parametrized in a "Z"-matrix here.

2. A parameter "q" to represent whether you value a category highly (for diversity purposes) even when it has only a single distinct example highly (q --> 0) or whether you value it highly only when it has many many examples (q --> infinity)

* With Z = identity matrix (categories completely distinct) they show how different values of q reproduce different measures that have been considered before. (nicely summarized in a table)

* The generalization (parameterized by Z) when the categories can/do have some overlap is very elegant, and feels like an important step forward. (especially how it makes the measure robust to how we partition a bunch of examples into distinct categories, so long as we keep track of the similarity between the categories)

* The paper also summarizes a bunch of sensible properties that we would want any diversity measure to satisfy (like the one I just mentioned above).

Fun stuff!

Re: An invariant from category theory solves a problem in mathematical ecology [pdf]

#12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah I was wondering about that. Their formula look suspiciously like the definition of Renyi entropy. I'm not too sure where the category theoretical stuff enters though. They mention that metric spaces have a magnitude, but their end result looks more like a channel capacity (with the confusion matrix being the probability to confuse one species with another). Which, you know, makes sense, if you've got 'N' signals b…

Metric spaces are enriched categories. They are enriched over the positive reals. The 'hom' between a pair of points is then simply a number: their distance.

And, these non-negative real numbers, which are these homs, are “hom objects”, so regarded as objects in “the category with as objects the non-negative real numbers, and as morphisms, the ‘being greater than or equal to’ “ ? Is that right?

So, I guess, (\R_{>= 0}, >=, +, 0) is like, a monoidal category with + as the monoidal operation?

So like, for x,y,z in the metric space, the

well, from hom(x,y) and hom(y,z) I guess the idea is there is a designated composition morphism

from hom(x,y) monoidalProduct hom(y,z) to hom(x,z)

which is specifically,

hom(x,y)+hom(y,z) >= hom(x,z)

(I said designated, but there is only the one, which is just the fact above.)

I.e. d(x,y)+d(y,z) >= d(x,z)

(Note: I didn’t manage to “just guess” this. I’ve seen it before, and was thinking it through as part of remembering how the idea worked. I am commenting this to both check my understanding in case I’m wrong, and to (assuming I’m remembering the idea correctly) provide an elaboration on what you said for anyone who might want more detail.)

Re: An invariant from category theory solves a problem in mathematical ecology [pdf]

#13
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Metric spaces are enriched categories. They are enriched over the positive reals. The 'hom' between a pair of points is then simply a number: their distance.

And, these non-negative real numbers, which are these homs, are “hom objects”, so regarded as objects in “the category with as objects the non-negative real numbers, and as morphisms, the ‘being greater than or equal to’ “ ? Is that right? So, I guess, (\R_{>= 0}, >=, +, 0) is like, a monoidal category with + as the monoidal operation? So like, for x,y,z in the metric space, the well, from hom(x,y) and hom(y,z) I gue…

> are “hom objects”, so regarded as objects in “the category with as objects the non-negative real numbers, and as morphisms, the ‘being greater than or equal to’ “ ?

This works, but it's not quite what you want in most cases. There's a lot of stuff that requires you to enrich over a closed category, so instead we define `Hom(a,b)` to be `max(b - a, 0)` (which you can very roughly think of as replacing the mere proposition `a https://www.emis.de/journals/TAC/reprints/articles/1/tr1.pdf for more.

Re: An invariant from category theory solves a problem in mathematical ecology [pdf]

#14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah I was wondering about that. Their formula look suspiciously like the definition of Renyi entropy. I'm not too sure where the category theoretical stuff enters though. They mention that metric spaces have a magnitude, but their end result looks more like a channel capacity (with the confusion matrix being the probability to confuse one species with another). Which, you know, makes sense, if you've got 'N' signals b…

Metric spaces are enriched categories. They are enriched over the positive reals. The 'hom' between a pair of points is then simply a number: their distance.

Indeed they are. I'm saying it may not be the right context in this case.

At least what they seem to be doing has little to do with metrics, and a lot more to do with probability distributions.

Re: An invariant from category theory solves a problem in mathematical ecology [pdf]

#16

The book that includes the results from these slides has broader scope, and also can be downloaded for free from arXiv: https://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~tl/ed/ "The starting point is the connection between diversity and entropy. We will discover: • how Shannon entropy, originally defined for communications engineering, can also be understood through biological diversity (Chapter 2); • how deformations of Shannon entropy e…

Ah I was wondering about that. Their formula look suspiciously like the definition of Renyi entropy. I'm not too sure where the category theoretical stuff enters though. They mention that metric spaces have a magnitude, but their end result looks more like a channel capacity (with the confusion matrix being the probability to confuse one species with another). Which, you know, makes sense, if you've got 'N' signals b…

[deleted]

Re: An invariant from category theory solves a problem in mathematical ecology [pdf]

#17
Wow. The fact that there is an objective answer that is independent of any perspective on the importance of rare species is a rare gift, at least for this part of the problem.

Some questions and thoughts.

It seems that the result could vary based on how you construct the similarity matrix Z, e.g. is it purely taxonomic? or does it try to account for the ecological roles that a species is playing in the community, etc.

A seeming limitation is that the optimization works only for a fixed set of n species. While it is useful for managing existing communities, it means that there is still a question of whether larger n is strictly better, and leaves open questions of how to deal with transient or migratory members (if the community is spatially bound).

The answer I think, is that it depends on how the similarity matrix is constructed. If every species is fully dissimilar then increasing n is always a good thing. If you use niche space to construct it and new species do not some add or enter new niches so they overlap with others, then they will be close to another species in the matrix and increasing n will not have much impact. On the other hand if you use a purely taxonomic approach then you wind up balancing the number of birds and mammals regardless of niche.

It is not clear to me whether it is possible to construct a similarity matrix that can account for the interaction between n, the carrying capacity of the ecosystem, and the number of available niches (or the ability of species to create new niches). By analogy if you have a stream (sunlight) powering water wheels, how many wheels and how many levels of gears (layers in the ecosystem) can be added, created, and/or sustained? At what point does adding an additional species mean that either two species are forced to be close together in the similarity matrix or both their populations must shrink in size because they must compete for the same energy sources?

Does the model sometimes produce impractical results, e.g. that it is good to have a single member of a sexually reproducing species (this is probably an orthogonal concern and you would want to scale to real population sizes such that the minimum corresponded to the smallest viable a self sustaining population)?

Is there evidence that maximizing diversity using this measure actually produces more robust and stable ecologies?

Re: An invariant from category theory solves a problem in mathematical ecology [pdf]

#18

The book that includes the results from these slides has broader scope, and also can be downloaded for free from arXiv: https://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~tl/ed/ "The starting point is the connection between diversity and entropy. We will discover: • how Shannon entropy, originally defined for communications engineering, can also be understood through biological diversity (Chapter 2); • how deformations of Shannon entropy e…

Why not define ecological diversity as number of distinct biological species living in the area?

Re: An invariant from category theory solves a problem in mathematical ecology [pdf]

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Metric spaces are enriched categories. They are enriched over the positive reals. The 'hom' between a pair of points is then simply a number: their distance.

Indeed they are. I'm saying it may not be the right context in this case. At least what they seem to be doing has little to do with metrics, and a lot more to do with probability distributions.

It's not clear what you're seeking. Probabilities appear because the magnitude of a space is a way of 'measuring' it -- and thus magnitude is closely related to entropy. Of course, you can follow your nose and find your way beyond mere spaces, and this may lead you to the notion of 'magnitude homology' [1]. But it's not clear that this generalization is the best way to introduce the idea of magnitude to ecology.

[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/1711.00802

Re: An invariant from category theory solves a problem in mathematical ecology [pdf]

#20
post #18

The book that includes the results from these slides has broader scope, and also can be downloaded for free from arXiv: https://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~tl/ed/ "The starting point is the connection between diversity and entropy. We will discover: • how Shannon entropy, originally defined for communications engineering, can also be understood through biological diversity (Chapter 2); • how deformations of Shannon entropy e…

Why not define ecological diversity as number of distinct biological species living in the area?

This is precisely the question answered by the OP. The answer is, "because there is a whole spectrum of things you might mean by 'diversity', of which 'number of distinct species' is only one extremum".
Post reply on HN