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The deindustrialization of Germany

politico.eu

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Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#11

Post by ahartmetz »

nieksand wrote: post #7
whinvik wrote: post #2

> Nearly 20 years ago, Germany overcame its reputation as the “sick man of Europe” with a package of ambitious labor market reforms Does anyone know what those were?

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2015/wp15162.pdf "In 2003–05, Germany undertook extensive labor market reforms which were followed by a large and persistent decline in unemployment. Key elements of the reforms were a drastic cut in benefits for the long-term unemployed and tighter job search and acceptance obligations."

Also working poor.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#12

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

sauercrowd wrote: post #6
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #4

And obviously the reason is the lack of labour reform and not the billions in handouts currently given by the US and China which the EU refuses to match because of its brain dead insistence on undistorted markets and fiscal rigour. Ah Politico, such well researched and reasonable journalism, it warms my heart…

what are you referring to with "billions of handouts"?

The Inflation Reduction Act in the USA and the equivalent measures which have been taken in China but don’t have a catchy name. Both countries are currently giving subsidies to companies at an unprecedented rate.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#13

Post by huijzer »

I have tried to go against some of the arguments because some are wrong, some are okayish, and some are just plain wrong, but I gave up. The article moves all over the place pulling random facts from all kinds of places in support of the idea that Germany is declining. Maybe that's true, maybe not. This article appears not rigorous enough to come to a right conclusion.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#14

Post by lo_zamoyski »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #8
whinvik wrote: post #2

> Nearly 20 years ago, Germany overcame its reputation as the “sick man of Europe” with a package of ambitious labor market reforms Does anyone know what those were?

The Hartz reforms are fairly famous, yes. It’s mostly social dumping. Forced contraction of actual wages through reform of the benefits plans. It’s important to note that they are overall poor reforms and should have been nullified by the German money value shifting due to the knock off effect on the saving rate. This didn’t happen because they were put in place at the same time as the Euro and the overall imbalance…

> In effect, Germany robbed all the poorer members of the union to prop up its own economy something it has kept doing since.

Those who like to bully the poorer members of the Union on the grounds that they're being bankrolled by the the wealthier states would be wise to take note of this, and take a more intelligent and informed view of EU "subsidies". The idea that the wealthier member states are showering these countries with funds out of the disinterested goodness of their hearts is not only ignorant of how these cash flows actually work in the grander scheme of the movement of money, but also preposterously naive.

The power balance is shifting in Europe against this crypto-germanocentrism, however.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#15

Post by imtringued »

whinvik wrote: post #2

> Nearly 20 years ago, Germany overcame its reputation as the “sick man of Europe” with a package of ambitious labor market reforms Does anyone know what those were?

The strategy Germany is following is to cut unit labor costs below Greece aka Germany is competing on price with Eastern European countries. This may get you the "Exportweltmeister" trophy but is is just that, a trophy. It doesn't actually benefit you that much.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#16

Post by ehvatum »

I feel embarrassed for Germany. So much pride, built on dishonesty and exploitation of customers and other EU nations. Getting to the point of implementing meaningful reform will be tremendously ugly, in a country that derives such gratification from exporting carbon-intensive industry to China. Sad.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#17

Post by imtringued »

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #14
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Hartz reforms are fairly famous, yes. It’s mostly social dumping. Forced contraction of actual wages through reform of the benefits plans. It’s important to note that they are overall poor reforms and should have been nullified by the German money value shifting due to the knock off effect on the saving rate. This didn’t happen because they were put in place at the same time as the Euro and the overall imbalance…

> In effect, Germany robbed all the poorer members of the union to prop up its own economy something it has kept doing since. Those who like to bully the poorer members of the Union on the grounds that they're being bankrolled by the the wealthier states would be wise to take note of this, and take a more intelligent and informed view of EU "subsidies". The idea that the wealthier member states are showering these co…

This sentiment is so common in Germany. Everyone blames the European "south" for Germany's problems as if Germany was some sort of hero doing all the work.

The Greek economic crisis is a classic example. German banks mess up when they lend too much money to Greece, Germany does a bailout for "Greece", the money actually goes back to German banks. Then people have this perception as if they somehow paid for all the social services bought with the borrowed money. No, Greece is still in debt. You might complain about forgone interest but that is on the lender, who is not doing his job properly.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#18

Post by Michelangelo11 »

huijzer wrote: post #13

I have tried to go against some of the arguments because some are wrong, some are okayish, and some are just plain wrong, but I gave up. The article moves all over the place pulling random facts from all kinds of places in support of the idea that Germany is declining. Maybe that's true, maybe not. This article appears not rigorous enough to come to a right conclusion.

Right, I have the same impression -- it's really all over the place.

Anyway, the absolute key issue seems to be energy costs. If they hadn't skyrocketed, this wouldn't be happening.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#19

Post by api »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #12
sauercrowd wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what are you referring to with "billions of handouts"?

The Inflation Reduction Act in the USA and the equivalent measures which have been taken in China but don’t have a catchy name. Both countries are currently giving subsidies to companies at an unprecedented rate.

There used to be a lot of opposition to these kinds of subsidies in the US until China started absolutely kicking America's ass because they subsidize their industries.

Private enterprise really can't compete with governments, and even less so against governments with their own sovereign currencies and the ability to subsidize forever.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#20

Post by adasdasdas »

imtringued wrote: post #17
lo_zamoyski wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In effect, Germany robbed all the poorer members of the union to prop up its own economy something it has kept doing since. Those who like to bully the poorer members of the Union on the grounds that they're being bankrolled by the the wealthier states would be wise to take note of this, and take a more intelligent and informed view of EU "subsidies". The idea that the wealthier member states are showering these co…

This sentiment is so common in Germany. Everyone blames the European "south" for Germany's problems as if Germany was some sort of hero doing all the work. The Greek economic crisis is a classic example. German banks mess up when they lend too much money to Greece, Germany does a bailout for "Greece", the money actually goes back to German banks. Then people have this perception as if they somehow paid for all the so…

Why are you only talking about the lender's fault when it comes to bad loans.
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