Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#11

Post by davidw » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 10:38 AM UTC

endymi0n wrote: post #4

Writing from a German startup right now, I can't quite follow the author here. Granted - German copycats and especially the Samwer Brothers have brought some bad feelings into the community... but Berlin is getting better and bolder every day. It's basically almost all the goodness from Silicon Valley, but without the hype and craze. It's a friendly, crazy and green city with great work ethics - you don't live for wo…

There are no corporate politics in Germany? That's pretty awesome.

In all seriousness though, you're cherry picking some of the bad stuff about the US. I'm sure if you wanted, you could do the same thing about Germany or anywhere else. For instance: the weather, the lack of anything remotely resembling a mountain near Berlin, and, most importantly, the lack of good Mexican food.

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#12

Post by zalew » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 10:40 AM UTC

endymi0n wrote: post #10

zalew wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Berlin is awesome. I know is a question with a very flexible answer but what are the monthly net rates a Py/Django/DB expat developer can expect in an average size company (not boring bigcorp) in 2012?

Very flexible indeed. Anywhere from 30k€/y (entry level, junior dev) till 60-70k€/y (top talent with work experience and some management duties) is possible for a regular full time job - sometimes more, but extreme rates are still pretty uncommon here. (Note though that you've got around the same standard of living here than for double the amount in dollars in the valley.)

Tx. Yeah, I quite know the standard of living, I'm from Warsaw, not the valley thought, and been there a few times ;)

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#13

Post by ThomPete » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 10:44 AM UTC

It's a European cultural issue. Denmark is not any different.

There are big discussions in Denmark right now about how to create growth. So the following can be applied to Germany as well I think.

I am saddened to see that most politicians thinking is:

1. Education 2. Green Tech (Wind Mills and Wave Mills primarily with government funding. Yes you heard that right) 3. Upgrading your education 4. Education 5. Innovation

All completely useless. And here is why:

1. Less than 5% of people with higher education in Denmark starts companies.

2. Green tech is not a thing. It's a term a vague one like UX. Let it go on record that the next bubble will be the green tech bubble.

What we should be talking about is technology, chemistry, biology, physics and various combinations of those.

Instead as seem to be the case in most of Europe eager to ditch nuclear (an actually fairly environmentally friendly energy source) governments are betting on specific technologies. Completely disregarding that it's impossible to get any proper economy into them anytime soon.

What can I say, sigh...

3. Denmark has a fairly large group of blue collars. Of course it makes some sense to try and upgrade them and I am sure it helps with some of them. But the battle to get a proper production industry up and running is simply futile and wont work.

First of all, the danish salaries are some of the highest in the world. Danes have some of the most protecting laws to the blue collar worker (no I am not at all against that, just trying to explain why it wont work) That means we are loosing to Germany and Poland and Sweden.

Danish Engineer ca. 40.000 DKK Polish Engineer ca. 15.000 DKK Indian Engineer ca. 5.000 DKK (if not less)

Just to show you the difference here. Anyone having done outsourcing knows that the quality can be different but it really depends on what kind of project we are talking about.

Second. The US lost 4 million jobs to the Chinese between 98-04. In the same period of time the chinese lost 18 million jobs to ... the robots.

Everything that can be automated will be automated and believing that we can somehow resurrect an industry that never really where that competitive is just pure insanity. Even engineers are loosing jobs.

4. Yes education once again. This is just to illustrate how much the government believe in this. Recently a study was done that showed that companies with most Phds had the highest revenue. This was then used as a proof to show just how important education is for the future of this country.

Now anyone who have spent just a couple of days on HN knows one of the biggest fallacies gets called out here.

"Correlation != causation"

Of course the other take on this story could be. The companies with the highest turnover had the most Phds hired.

The report made no attempt to claim connection between the number of Phds and the financial success of the company. No. Leave that the to the politicians.

5. According to our politicians we are supposed to grow from the experience economy and through innovation. Our cultural minister even have made a "task force" of cultural celebrities from around europe who are to travel around europe and find out how to use art as a vehicle for growth and innovation.

Yes you heard it right. This is the kind of insanity we are dealing with here.

Never mind that saying we need innovation has as little effect on the ability of a country to innovate as saying green tech creates green technology. The politicians actually believe that they can intellectualize growth and progress.

In other words. Everything that is right about SV is wrong about Denmark and my guess most places in Europe.

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#14

Post by zalew » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 10:44 AM UTC

davidw wrote: post #11

endymi0n wrote: post #4

Writing from a German startup right now, I can't quite follow the author here. Granted - German copycats and especially the Samwer Brothers have brought some bad feelings into the community... but Berlin is getting better and bolder every day. It's basically almost all the goodness from Silicon Valley, but without the hype and craze. It's a friendly, crazy and green city with great work ethics - you don't live for wo…

There are no corporate politics in Germany? That's pretty awesome. In all seriousness though, you're cherry picking some of the bad stuff about the US. I'm sure if you wanted, you could do the same thing about Germany or anywhere else. For instance: the weather, the lack of anything remotely resembling a mountain near Berlin, and, most importantly, the lack of good Mexican food.

> the lack of anything remotely resembling a mountain near Berlin

Bavaria and Switzerland are not that far. Polish Sudety even closer and much cheaper.

> most importantly, the lack of good Mexican food.

Tex-mex is an American obsession. In Europe we have mediterranean. A doner-kebab is for us what a taco is to you, and say what you want, but kebab is a snack there's no shortage of in Berlin.

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#15

Post by arethuza » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 10:47 AM UTC

alan_cx wrote: post #3

chaostheory wrote: post #2

"People in SV are not afraid to fail. In fact, having failed before is considered a great quality. If you haven’t failed, you’re either inexperienced or suspicious. Startups try, fail, try again, pivot, fail and try again." I think aside from maybe regulation, this is the biggest issue that Germany has and it's also the same one that Japan faces. The fear of failure and losing face. I'm not even sure that you can cha…

In the UK, if you fail, its pretty much game over. You get black listed and pretty much, that's the end of it. If you fail and go bankrupt, then set up again, you are almost seen as a fraudulent criminal. In the US, it seems to me that you can try and fail as much as you like, as long as you keep trying and don't get criminal. Trying seems to be enough to get some level of respect. It is absolutely one of the things…

There is a big difference between being part of a business which "failed" and personal bankruptcy - that's the benefit of limited liability, after all.

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#16

Post by davidw » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 10:48 AM UTC

zalew wrote: post #14

davidw wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no corporate politics in Germany? That's pretty awesome. In all seriousness though, you're cherry picking some of the bad stuff about the US. I'm sure if you wanted, you could do the same thing about Germany or anywhere else. For instance: the weather, the lack of anything remotely resembling a mountain near Berlin, and, most importantly, the lack of good Mexican food.

> the lack of anything remotely resembling a mountain near Berlin Bavaria and Switzerland are not that far. Polish Sudety even closer and much cheaper. > most importantly, the lack of good Mexican food. Tex-mex is an American obsession. In Europe we have mediterranean. A doner-kebab is for us what a taco is to you, and say what you want, but kebab is a snack there's no shortage of in Berlin.

Perhaps I've been conditioned by living in Europe, but my definition of "not far" means I can ride my bike to it!

Kebabs are great (we have them here too in Italy), but sorry, I'll take good Mexican food any day:-)

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#17

Post by zalew » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 10:50 AM UTC

davidw wrote: post #16

zalew wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the lack of anything remotely resembling a mountain near Berlin Bavaria and Switzerland are not that far. Polish Sudety even closer and much cheaper. > most importantly, the lack of good Mexican food. Tex-mex is an American obsession. In Europe we have mediterranean. A doner-kebab is for us what a taco is to you, and say what you want, but kebab is a snack there's no shortage of in Berlin.

Perhaps I've been conditioned by living in Europe, but my definition of "not far" means I can ride my bike to it! Kebabs are great (we have them here too in Italy), but sorry, I'll take good Mexican food any day:-)

> but my definition of "not far" means I can ride my bike to it

haha, well... I thought of going for a weekend, not after work. There are a few nice Mexican restaurants in Warsaw, so I know the deal, still sadly mex didn't somehow fall into the 'grab a taco and walk' category as I see on American movies, this space is totally occoupied by kebabs.

(btw, HN could display a country next to the nickname, so there's no "oh, you're not from the US too".)

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#18

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 10:53 AM UTC

davidw wrote: post #11

endymi0n wrote: post #4

Writing from a German startup right now, I can't quite follow the author here. Granted - German copycats and especially the Samwer Brothers have brought some bad feelings into the community... but Berlin is getting better and bolder every day. It's basically almost all the goodness from Silicon Valley, but without the hype and craze. It's a friendly, crazy and green city with great work ethics - you don't live for wo…

There are no corporate politics in Germany? That's pretty awesome. In all seriousness though, you're cherry picking some of the bad stuff about the US. I'm sure if you wanted, you could do the same thing about Germany or anywhere else. For instance: the weather, the lack of anything remotely resembling a mountain near Berlin, and, most importantly, the lack of good Mexican food.

[deleted]

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#19

Post by derrida » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 10:54 AM UTC

davidw wrote: post #16

zalew wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the lack of anything remotely resembling a mountain near Berlin Bavaria and Switzerland are not that far. Polish Sudety even closer and much cheaper. > most importantly, the lack of good Mexican food. Tex-mex is an American obsession. In Europe we have mediterranean. A doner-kebab is for us what a taco is to you, and say what you want, but kebab is a snack there's no shortage of in Berlin.

Perhaps I've been conditioned by living in Europe, but my definition of "not far" means I can ride my bike to it! Kebabs are great (we have them here too in Italy), but sorry, I'll take good Mexican food any day:-)

The kebabs are something else in Berlin. Much more like a Taco than those greasy things you see elsewhere in the world.

Re: Why Germany should copy Silicon Valley's culture rather than their startups

#20

Post by erikabele » Fri, Mar 02, 2012, 10:56 AM UTC

zalew wrote: post #14

davidw wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no corporate politics in Germany? That's pretty awesome. In all seriousness though, you're cherry picking some of the bad stuff about the US. I'm sure if you wanted, you could do the same thing about Germany or anywhere else. For instance: the weather, the lack of anything remotely resembling a mountain near Berlin, and, most importantly, the lack of good Mexican food.

> the lack of anything remotely resembling a mountain near Berlin Bavaria and Switzerland are not that far. Polish Sudety even closer and much cheaper. > most importantly, the lack of good Mexican food. Tex-mex is an American obsession. In Europe we have mediterranean. A doner-kebab is for us what a taco is to you, and say what you want, but kebab is a snack there's no shortage of in Berlin.

though not really Mexican we have Dolores here in Berlin - as good as calimex can get!