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Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

nytimes.com

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Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#11

Post by gjsman-1000 »

AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #9

This is conflicting, on one hand it's certainty within the right of a store to bar people who shoplift, it's really an imperative to do so. The petty crime issue the retailers here are trying to counter is a real one. But this application it feels like falling down an increasingly slippery slope. Sure, today, it's just "send an alert and the store can do what it wants" but how long until that transforms into a de fac…

I think that stores would be far more willing to remove facial recognition if there was a guarantee, a social contract, that shoplifter = police on the scene immediately = arrest = minimum 30 days imprisonment regardless of object size, without bail, sentence time increases by 30 days for each repeat offense within the last three years. Problem solved; we can focus on community programs to reduce the desire to shoplift afterwards.

The facial recognition stuff is the digital equivalent of vigilante justice. The best way to stop vigilante justice of any kind is to have Police do their jobs.

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#12

Post by aurizon »

yieldcrv wrote: post #4

hmm on one hand: shoplifters aren’t shoplifting all the time on the other hand: there are many alternative ways for people to get food now, and I’m fine if a prior infraction raises their costs - such as needing to go to a farmers market, or needing to use a grocery delivery app so a surrogate purchases for them I would be against this if it meant no way to get groceries there does need to be an appeals process or wa…

If they want to use an appeal process, they must enter the legal process and be judged, at which point an appeal is launched. If caught by store security, they have you with the box, they have on video taking the box and walking out of the store = strong irrefutable evidence - with no receipt and that video evidence goose = cooked = fine/jail/record. SO you agree to plea and swear to never come here again and to allow they to take a number of head shots at of a number of poses so machine video can spot you. UK judges have agreed this is OK, and I think it is. Crooks and lawyers hate it because it messes with the 'take'...

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#13

Post by gjsman-1000 »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #10
chomp wrote: post #5

Mixed feelings here. First, the false positive issue. Second, the network effect, being locked out of buying anything to eat if you shoplift. Third, the potential to track my movement to local stores that use the service, even if I am a non-criminal. On the other side, shoplifting is becoming lawless and stores are at their wits' end. What are they supposed to do to combat shoplifting? The law certainly isn't deterri…

Is shoplifting actually increasing? Data trumps anecdotes. Combatting it is easy, you need to pay someone to stand at the door and check receipts. But stores don't want to spend money on labor and instead just want to whine and claim there is nothing that can be done, we need to hire more police, etc. to make it someone else's problem.

It's gone berserk since the pandemic. CVS claims they have had a 300% increase.

https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2022/why-has-shopl...

https://www.axios.com/2022/02/11/shoplifting-retail-crisis-o...

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#14

Post by Kon-Peki »

AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #9

This is conflicting, on one hand it's certainty within the right of a store to bar people who shoplift, it's really an imperative to do so. The petty crime issue the retailers here are trying to counter is a real one. But this application it feels like falling down an increasingly slippery slope. Sure, today, it's just "send an alert and the store can do what it wants" but how long until that transforms into a de fac…

Imagine people uploading deepfakes of people they don't like shoplifting. Apparently any of the participating shops can deposit video into the system...

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#16

Post by currency »

yieldcrv wrote: post #4

hmm on one hand: shoplifters aren’t shoplifting all the time on the other hand: there are many alternative ways for people to get food now, and I’m fine if a prior infraction raises their costs - such as needing to go to a farmers market, or needing to use a grocery delivery app so a surrogate purchases for them I would be against this if it meant no way to get groceries there does need to be an appeals process or wa…

How are people being added to the database? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? How is abuse prevented in this system? There absolutely should be an open review and appeal process.

After that: If you're homeless, you can't get groceries delivered. In a food desert you might not have alternatives.

I personally believe shoplifting is not as bad as is being portrayed recently and this a solution in search of a problem.

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#17

Post by qbasic_forever »

aurizon wrote: post #8

If a shop catches a thief with a box he took outside the store after they chase him down, they offer him a choice, we will either prosecute you and get you jailed/fined - or you can promise never to come here again and to be sure, we will take your photo and use our scanner to detect you, and will tell all the local shops as well. Offered that choice, few would take the police route - this may be their tenth arrest =…

No one is chasing shoplifters, at least in America. Store employees have been shot and killed attempting to reclaim stolen goods. Or even worse, employees have tackled and injured shoplifters who have then turned around and successfully sued the stores for huge personal injury claims. It is store policy everywhere that employees are not allowed to pursue suspected shoplifters and folks have been fired for doing exactly that.

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#18

Post by qbasic_forever »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #13
qbasic_forever wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is shoplifting actually increasing? Data trumps anecdotes. Combatting it is easy, you need to pay someone to stand at the door and check receipts. But stores don't want to spend money on labor and instead just want to whine and claim there is nothing that can be done, we need to hire more police, etc. to make it someone else's problem.

It's gone berserk since the pandemic. CVS claims they have had a 300% increase. https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2022/why-has-shopl... https://www.axios.com/2022/02/11/shoplifting-retail-crisis-o...

And other data points say the opposite: https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/18/business/retail-shoplifting-s...

"In a major shift, Walgreens, which said it saw a spike in shrink during the pandemic and cited organized retail crime in its decision to close five San Francisco stores in 2021, is backtracking.

“Maybe we cried too much last year” about shrink numbers, Walgreens finance chief James Kehoe said on an earnings call earlier this month.

During its latest quarter, the company’s shrink rate fell to around 2.5% from 3.5% of total sales last year."

I don't see a clear picture of increasing shoplifting. I do see a clear incentive for stores to claim there is an increase in shoplifting though.

Re: Barred from Grocery Stores by Facial Recognition

#19

Post by juujian »

toolz wrote: post #3

Society is going to have a hard learned lesson on how badly false positives with punishment systems destroys community trust. It doesn't take but a few unjustly punished folks exacting revenge on the systems that hurt them to quickly polarize and disrupt communities.

I have my doubt. Store security still has the leeway to decide what action to take. I suspect they will treat a false positive different when it is a guy in suit and tie vs. someone you would suspect of shoplifting based on a sloppier appearance. If facial recognition just aids the abuse of the poor it won't result in any backlash whatsoever.
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