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EFF Wins Protection for Time Zone Database

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Re: EFF Wins Protection for Time Zone Database

#11

Post by smsm42 »

notatoad wrote: post #6
ggchappell wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good question. The article seems to indicate that there was almost a penalty. FTA: > In January, EFF advised Astrolabe that Olson and Eggert would move for sanctions if Astrolabe did not withdraw its complaint. Today's dismissal followed. In other words, the complaint was dropped only after penalties were threatened. Thinking about this issue, I see your point, but I'm not sure how far in that direction we s…

frivolous is one thing, fraudulent is another. they filed a copyright claim on information that not only do they not own, information that it is not possible to own. this sort of behaviour should be punished.

One can make a honest mistake about the facts and the law. If every time that somebody is mistaken were to be severely punished, suing a large well lawyered entity would be completely impossible, since in the event of loss one will be surely ruined financially by the mandatory punishment. If however one can see that the suit is frivolous or malicious and it was known and explained to them and they still chose to proceed, then the punishment may be due. But in this case it still can be argued that they honestly thought the law was on their side, even if they were wrong.

Re: EFF Wins Protection for Time Zone Database

#12

Post by jonhendry »

polemic wrote: post #3

Seems like now would be a good time to: https://supporters.eff.org/join , https://supporters.eff.org/donate or https://supporters.eff.org/shop

True.

But to be honest, the apology and climb down were pretty decent too. All too often these things are dragged out and fought tooth and nail, to nobody's benefit but the lawyers.

Which is to say, the astrology people seem to be pretty decent folks about it, not SCO-type bipedal hagfish in 3-piece suits, or Rightshaven-style copyright sharks with a business model based on IP lawsuits.

If I knew anyone who were into astrology-type things, I think I might order them something from Astrolabe, as a small reward for the good behavior in dropping the suit.

Ignoring for a moment the question of whether IP is valid as a concept: if they were misinformed that they had a case, and that their IP had been widely misappropriated without compensation, they probably thought they were in the right. And I'm not sure I can fault them for doing so, given the advice they were likely given.

Whoever gave them the bad legal advice might have led them to believe they were on to a legal jackpot. It doesn't seem to be a big, money-spinning operation, so the case might have offered the possibility of a more comfortable old age for these people.

A little extra business from appreciative tech types would help lessen the sting.

Re: EFF Wins Protection for Time Zone Database

#13

Post by bhickey »

marshray wrote: post #10
notatoad wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

frivolous is one thing, fraudulent is another. they filed a copyright claim on information that not only do they not own, information that it is not possible to own. this sort of behaviour should be punished.

If anyone should be punished, it's the lawyers who enabled them to persist in this course of action. Perhaps basic facts can't be copyrighted, but sometimes collections of facts are given some protection. The telephone directory is a classic example. Given the sincerity of the apology, I think it was a honest mistake and a welcome example of the legal system working the way it should. At least after EFF is on the cas…

You have your example backward. Feist v. Rural held that telephone books are not subject to copyright. Just because something was laborious to compile does not make it copyrightable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_v._Rural

Re: EFF Wins Protection for Time Zone Database

#14

Post by drucken »

smsm42 wrote: post #11
notatoad wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

frivolous is one thing, fraudulent is another. they filed a copyright claim on information that not only do they not own, information that it is not possible to own. this sort of behaviour should be punished.

One can make a honest mistake about the facts and the law. If every time that somebody is mistaken were to be severely punished, suing a large well lawyered entity would be completely impossible, since in the event of loss one will be surely ruined financially by the mandatory punishment. If however one can see that the suit is frivolous or malicious and it was known and explained to them and they still chose to proc…

This is most certainly not the case here. Read this: https://www.eff.org/sites/default/files/filenode/rule11motio...

Astrolabe deliberately filed a complaint but did not serve the defendants. In a sense, they create a huge legal uncertainty which just by itself caused significant damage. This was a clear abuse of an enforcement loophole in the litigation-heavy American justice system.

The mere threat or FUD of full legal action is being used to eliminate competition. If there were ever a case for sanctions, this would definitely be it.

Re: EFF Wins Protection for Time Zone Database

#15

Post by rhizome »

marshray wrote: post #10
notatoad wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

frivolous is one thing, fraudulent is another. they filed a copyright claim on information that not only do they not own, information that it is not possible to own. this sort of behaviour should be punished.

If anyone should be punished, it's the lawyers who enabled them to persist in this course of action. Perhaps basic facts can't be copyrighted, but sometimes collections of facts are given some protection. The telephone directory is a classic example. Given the sincerity of the apology, I think it was a honest mistake and a welcome example of the legal system working the way it should. At least after EFF is on the cas…

The telephone directory is not a classic example, but there is some controversy over the copyright claims on regional building codes and WestLaw's legally-citable database of court cases.

Re: EFF Wins Protection for Time Zone Database

#16

Post by marshray »

bhickey wrote: post #13
marshray wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone should be punished, it's the lawyers who enabled them to persist in this course of action. Perhaps basic facts can't be copyrighted, but sometimes collections of facts are given some protection. The telephone directory is a classic example. Given the sincerity of the apology, I think it was a honest mistake and a welcome example of the legal system working the way it should. At least after EFF is on the cas…

You have your example backward. Feist v. Rural held that telephone books are not subject to copyright. Just because something was laborious to compile does not make it copyrightable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_v._Rural

Yes, good point.

Re: EFF Wins Protection for Time Zone Database

#17

Post by nmridul »

marshray wrote: post #10
notatoad wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

frivolous is one thing, fraudulent is another. they filed a copyright claim on information that not only do they not own, information that it is not possible to own. this sort of behaviour should be punished.

If anyone should be punished, it's the lawyers who enabled them to persist in this course of action. Perhaps basic facts can't be copyrighted, but sometimes collections of facts are given some protection. The telephone directory is a classic example. Given the sincerity of the apology, I think it was a honest mistake and a welcome example of the legal system working the way it should. At least after EFF is on the cas…

This would be a good time to start a site that publishes the lawyer's that come up with such cases. That would at the least shame some of them from taking up such cases in future.

Re: EFF Wins Protection for Time Zone Database

#18

Post by jonknee »

jonhendry wrote: post #12
polemic wrote: post #3

Seems like now would be a good time to: https://supporters.eff.org/join , https://supporters.eff.org/donate or https://supporters.eff.org/shop

True. But to be honest, the apology and climb down were pretty decent too. All too often these things are dragged out and fought tooth and nail, to nobody's benefit but the lawyers. Which is to say, the astrology people seem to be pretty decent folks about it, not SCO-type bipedal hagfish in 3-piece suits, or Rightshaven-style copyright sharks with a business model based on IP lawsuits. If I knew anyone who were into…

> Which is to say, the astrology people seem to be pretty decent folks about it, not SCO-type bipedal hagfish in 3-piece suits, or Rightshaven-style copyright sharks with a business model based on IP lawsuits. > If I knew anyone who were into astrology-type things, I think I might order them something from Astrolabe, as a small reward for the good behavior in dropping the suit.

Regardless of stepping down, it was an obviously frivolous suit in the first place. Backing down from BS threats isn't something that should be commended, not ever making them in the first place should be. Who would ever think that time zones are copyrightable and have the cojones to sue over it? An absurd and a waste of everyone's time.

Update: I just read the complaint and their attorney uses her Gmail address for official business. What a joke. Go figure that an astrology company has a fly by night attorney filing obviously BS lawsuits.

Re: EFF Wins Protection for Time Zone Database

#19

Post by dylanvee »

Dr. Eggert is a lecturer at UCLA, and a fantastic one at that (not to mention a huge contributor to various GNU projects). This quarter I have the pleasure of taking his Operating Systems class, and last year I got to take Programming Languages taught by him. I'm really happy about this outcome because people like him should never have to have their brilliance tempered by patent trolls.
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