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The False Promise of Imitating Proprietary LLMs

arxiv.org

11–20 of 90 posts

Re: The False Promise of Imitating Proprietary LLMs

#12
post #2

The authors conduct automated, more methodical evaluations of LLMs finetuned to imitate ChatGPT outputs, and find that, despite superficial/informal appearances to the contrary, the base LLMs close little to none of the gap to ChatGPT on tasks that are not heavily supported in the imitation data. It's not good news for the open LLM ecosystem.

[deleted]

Re: The False Promise of Imitating Proprietary LLMs

#13
From the Conclusion:

"Finally, our work raises ethical and legal questions, including whether the open-source community should continue to advance progress by “stealing” what OpenAI and other companies have done, as well as what legal countermeasures companies can take to protect and license intellectual property."

Really???

Re: The False Promise of Imitating Proprietary LLMs

#14

The breathtaking audacity of calling distilling GPT4 'stealing' when GPT4 trained on data it has no proprietary right to.

Just because someone can convert text to numbers doesn’t mean they have a right to the numbers. That’s like trying to own the emotion a book has on someone, or the things they see in mind when they read it.

Re: The False Promise of Imitating Proprietary LLMs

#15
post #2

The authors conduct automated, more methodical evaluations of LLMs finetuned to imitate ChatGPT outputs, and find that, despite superficial/informal appearances to the contrary, the base LLMs close little to none of the gap to ChatGPT on tasks that are not heavily supported in the imitation data. It's not good news for the open LLM ecosystem.

Good news for alignment though. This gives me a tiny amount of hope.

Re: The False Promise of Imitating Proprietary LLMs

#16
post #2

The authors conduct automated, more methodical evaluations of LLMs finetuned to imitate ChatGPT outputs, and find that, despite superficial/informal appearances to the contrary, the base LLMs close little to none of the gap to ChatGPT on tasks that are not heavily supported in the imitation data. It's not good news for the open LLM ecosystem.

This is a very weird type of paper. They take a specific approach, then make arguments about a broad class of approaches that are under constant development. The finding that distilled LLMs must be more specialized than the giant LLMs that train them is unsurprising; nobody at this point expects a 13B parameter model to succeed with the same accuracy at the broad range of tasks supported by what may be a 1T parameter model.

Re: The False Promise of Imitating Proprietary LLMs

#17
The jump between llama 13B and 30B is quite significant. And their instruction finetuning is not SOTA I don't think, though the point about general knowledge is a good one: instruction llama lies very confidently.

But one great thing about open source LLMs is that you can specialize them in various tasks with affordable LORA training, enough to easily beat GPT4 in a specific niche.

Re: The False Promise of Imitating Proprietary LLMs

#18
This is exactly the reason OpenAI isn't afraid of the open-source community, like many kneejerk opponents of regulatory capture assume (they are probably still afraid of Google). Also why they still do the expensive and cumbersome RLHF training, instead of those deceptively cheap and fast finetunes. They understand their own tech and why there isn't free lunch.

Recently, John Schulman explained the issue with behavior cloning and it's a very typical ML problem.[1] Basically: what are we training the model to do? The model updates after finetuning in a holistic manner, based on the sum total of its content and capability. Suppose GPT-4 can correctly answer to many requests because it knows correct answers, in the sense that it has something isomorphic to an internal knowledge graph and tools for querying it, and that graph contains sufficient data for its tools to derive an answer at inference. RLHF reinforces this behavior by constraining the distribution of outputs (essentially, steering the model away from applying inappropriate tools for respective inputs, e.g. employing fantasy-narrative or bad-yahoo-answers cognitive routines when asked something that looks like a straightforward factual question).

Now suppose you teach LLaMA-13B to imitate those responses by SFTing it on a dump of successful GPT-4 conversations. But LLaMA doesn't have internals that would have enabled it to find the same answers; so on the object level it shallowly memorizes specific items of the post-training dataset, and on the meta-level it learns the stylistic flourish of a high-powered model. But it starts to hallucinate confident nonsense whenever you step out of the training distribution, because it doesn't actually learn to query its own knowledge graph. A little anthropomorphism won't hurt: you create an incapable impostor this way, a wannabe nerd, a character who is used to guessing the teacher's password and being praised, instead of understanding the subject, and keeps raising its hand whenever a question is asked, but is painfully clueless.

Indeed, the early and cheap success of behavior cloning was a massive red flag unto itself. There's no way all the compute and data that went into training GPT-3/3.5/4 tier models can be substituted with gently demonstrating the attitude vector. If we had models that were markedly less capable but comparably honest, we would have reasons for hope that this line terminates in a genuine open-source peer competitor; instead, we have total fraud.

It is a nontrivial task to have a model generalize epistemic honesty and not a lower-order behavior like clamping up and kowtowing or bullshitting from external examples; train it to say "I don't know" whenever it actually does not, but only then.

There are clever approaches here, but they're not such a low-hanging fruit as what passes for open-source right now.

1. https://youtu.be/hhiLw5Q_UFg?t=685

Re: The False Promise of Imitating Proprietary LLMs

#19

If they really didn't test anything bigger than 13b, as their abstract states, then this doesn't even seem worth reading through.

The "Google has no moat" thing claimed that Vicuna-13B was almost as good as ChatGPT and this paper seemingly refutes that.

Re: The False Promise of Imitating Proprietary LLMs

#20
post #10

If they really didn't test anything bigger than 13b, as their abstract states, then this doesn't even seem worth reading through.

my eyebrows went up at a number of choices made in their assessment

Could you explain what other choices were red flags for you? I’m somewhat familiar with the open source LLMs space but not enough to know why some choices are better than others.
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