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A roundabout way of turning on a light. See the explanation b4 reading

kosherswitch.com

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Re: A roundabout way of turning on a light. See the explanation b4 reading

#11

Post by JerusaEnt »

emmelaich wrote: post #9
JerusaEnt wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am Jewish. So I can tell you that you are 100% right. I don't think this is really going to catch on for that very reason. Sabbath is a day set aside for family, religion, and not working. I think what the main use is going to be is people will install it for emergencies. So I'm sure in Israel a lot of people will put it in their bomb shelters so if they need to spend Sabbath in the shelter and need to use the ligh…

> will install it for emergencies Surely use in emergencies is allowed already. (I am not Jewish, but I heard an Oy Vey once)

That is true. If any ones life is in danger, your supposed to "forget" the Sabbath right away and do what's necessary. But, for example, if your wife is very very pregnant and can give birth over Sabbath, if she goes into labour on Sabbath, 100% you HAVE to driver her to the hospital. But it's better if before Sabbath you order a taxi.

Re: A roundabout way of turning on a light. See the explanation b4 reading

#12

Post by JerusaEnt »

corin_ wrote: post #10
JerusaEnt wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another "hack" us Jews use very often is a timer. We have a timer hooked up to an outlet, and plug things into the timer, so you can set certain times to allow the electricity through, and other times not to.

It seems to me that "hacks" like these are just missing the point - though I'm an atheist, so maybe I'm just missing the point. If the logic is that God didn't want a fire lit, surely that is because he didn't want the fire, not that he didn't want someone lighting it. Isn't it all a little bit like a scaled down, less immoral, version of saying "No, I didn't kill him, I just pushed him into the ocean - blame the wat…

Well there are scores of books on these issues, and some great Rabbis hold exactly what you are saying. But some say that since there is no action on the Sabbath, and the act is before the Sabbath, and before the Sabbath it wasn't an issue. So then even though the result is on the Sabbath, it's not actually an issue.

Re: A roundabout way of turning on a light. See the explanation b4 reading

#13

Post by _delirium »

howardr wrote: post #6
MiguelHudnandez wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I understand it, some orthodox jews are not permitted to do any "work" on the sabbath. Some factions believe that flicking a light switch is "work," or that pressing a button is "work." So some enterprising fellows have been creating ingenious inventions to allow observant orthodox jews to live comfortably while still not technically violating their rules. It all seems pretty silly to me, but you have to ad…

One of my friends said that his grandparents would light their stove before sundown on friday and leave it lit until sundown Saturday so they would not break kosher laws I have also heard that a lot of devices have kosher mode. E.g. refrigerators lights not coming on and power randomly going in and out much like this swith

The random-refrigerator-compressor one is something I read about recently and would never have occurred to me. The reasoning is that in a normal setup, the compressor's operation is driven by internal temperature, which is impacted by opening/closing the door, so opening/closing the door is indirectly "operating" an electric motor, the compressor. To avoid that, in Sabbath mode the compressor runs on a non-thermostat-based schedule, so its operation is not being directed by any human activity.

Some electric ovens and stoves also have a Sabbath mode that lets them stay on all day; in the normal mode most have an auto-shutoff after 12 hours, under the assumption that an oven left on for more than 12 hours was probably an accident.

Re: A roundabout way of turning on a light. See the explanation b4 reading

#14

Post by aidenn0 »

corin_ wrote: post #10
JerusaEnt wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another "hack" us Jews use very often is a timer. We have a timer hooked up to an outlet, and plug things into the timer, so you can set certain times to allow the electricity through, and other times not to.

It seems to me that "hacks" like these are just missing the point - though I'm an atheist, so maybe I'm just missing the point. If the logic is that God didn't want a fire lit, surely that is because he didn't want the fire, not that he didn't want someone lighting it. Isn't it all a little bit like a scaled down, less immoral, version of saying "No, I didn't kill him, I just pushed him into the ocean - blame the wat…

It seems to me a timer is fine; the point isn't to be in total darkness, the point is to not do the proscribed things. You are free to sit in front of a fire, so long as you didn't light it.

Things like the switch in this article seems really silly though. Of course having a gentile to push elevator buttons for you seems silly to me as well.

Re: A roundabout way of turning on a light. See the explanation b4 reading

#16

Post by earl »

Here's another article about jewish appliances in general [1] with more detail about the restrictions. Essentially, jewish law differentiates between direct and indirect responses to actions. And I can verify you'll occasionally see this stuff on the UES, and a little more often in the Hasidic bits of Brooklyn.

   Sabbath law prohibits Jews from performing actions that cause a direct reaction;
   that would qualify as forbidden work. But indirect reactions are, well, kosher. In
   Hebrew, this concept is called the gramma. There are two types of grammas,
   Ottensoser tells me. Say you hit a light switch, but it doesn't come on
   immediately - that's a time delay, a time gramma. There's also a gramma of
   mechanical indirectness, like a Rube Goldberg contraption in which a mouse turns a
   wheel that swings a hammer that turns a key that launches a rocket. You can't
   claim the mouse actually launches the rocket.
That being said, as an atheist, it sure looks like these people are playing rules lawyer with their god, just like the dick at your D&D game. I have to wonder if such a god would be pleased.

[1] http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/kosher.html

Re: A roundabout way of turning on a light. See the explanation b4 reading

#17

Post by timinman »

This is a fantastic discussion about what God might want (or not want). I am a person of faith, I'm impressed by the respectful tone of many commenters even thought they are obviously from very different backgrounds (rare in online discussions). I think God likes that, too.

Re: A roundabout way of turning on a light. See the explanation b4 reading

#18

Post by lywald »

MiguelHudnandez wrote: post #5
kichuku88 wrote: post #2

Hi. I am not Jewish (I am in a country with hardly any Jews) and I do not know what relation there is to electrical switched to a religious day. Sorry for being ignorant. But can you please explain in simple words what is need for this for Jews?

As far as I understand it, some orthodox jews are not permitted to do any "work" on the sabbath. Some factions believe that flicking a light switch is "work," or that pressing a button is "work." So some enterprising fellows have been creating ingenious inventions to allow observant orthodox jews to live comfortably while still not technically violating their rules. It all seems pretty silly to me, but you have to ad…

It seems to me like the goal is to lure jews into studying their religion intensively by giving them forced free time. And if that's the case then switching a light on indirectly is still wrong because you are wasting time and focus trying to switch it. A better alternative then would be automation. Switch on given a schedule, or switch on when entering the room, ect...

Re: A roundabout way of turning on a light. See the explanation b4 reading

#19

Post by ajuc »

corin_ wrote: post #10
JerusaEnt wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another "hack" us Jews use very often is a timer. We have a timer hooked up to an outlet, and plug things into the timer, so you can set certain times to allow the electricity through, and other times not to.

It seems to me that "hacks" like these are just missing the point - though I'm an atheist, so maybe I'm just missing the point. If the logic is that God didn't want a fire lit, surely that is because he didn't want the fire, not that he didn't want someone lighting it. Isn't it all a little bit like a scaled down, less immoral, version of saying "No, I didn't kill him, I just pushed him into the ocean - blame the wat…

I'm not a Jew, but I've read the Old Testament, and God depicted there cares about intentions a lot more, than about effects. For example - God wanted Abraham to kill his son not because he wanted Jakub death, but he wanted blind obedience from Abraham. Which is still illogical - because first - God knew beforehand what Abraham will do, second - it's strange that God prefers people to be obedient, than ethical (one can argue that killing son because of God order is not unethical, when we assume God is always right).

Anyway - omnipotent and omniscient God is logical contradiction already, either logic don't work on God, or it's all bullshit. So religion doesn't have to be logical.

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