Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Dartium: Google’s New Dart Programming Language Comes to Chromium

siliconfilter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 53 posts

Re: Dartium: Google’s New Dart Programming Language Comes to Chromium

#11

Post by rst »

sek wrote: post #3
mistercow wrote: post #2

I wish Google would just embrace CoffeeScript instead of this. It's a prettier language, and already solves many of the problems Dart is concerned with.

The primary goal of dart is speed.

And yet, oddly, one of the front-page testimonials for node.js is LinkedIn saying that use of that particular brand of server-side Javascript gave them "huge performance gains". That obviously doesn't mean that Node (or Javascript in general) will perform well in every situation, but it does show at least an existence proof that JS is capable of high performance in some very demanding environments.

What I haven't seen out of the Dart project, so far, is a description of what performance targets they're trying to meet, why they think that no set Javascript extensions (e.g., the "freeze" proposals for Harmony) would suffice to meet those targets, and why they think that any of this is relevant to people whose needs _are_ adequately met by Javascript as it stands.

Re: Dartium: Google’s New Dart Programming Language Comes to Chromium

#12

Post by mistercow »

slewis wrote: post #6
mistercow wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the stated design goals for Dart: http://www.dartlang.org/docs/technical-overview/index.html#g... Performance is a design goal, but it is not given as the primary goal. Of course, a cynical observer might say that the real primary goal of Dart is to give Chrome an artificial performance advantage over competing browsers, since that will be, at the very least, an initial effect if Google succeeds in pro…

Google doesn't care if Chrome is perceived as faster. They want the entire web to be faster. They use Chrome to push the envelope.

> Google doesn't care if Chrome is perceived as faster.

I think that's rather unlikely.

Re: Dartium: Google’s New Dart Programming Language Comes to Chromium

#13

Post by ootachi »

slewis wrote: post #6
mistercow wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the stated design goals for Dart: http://www.dartlang.org/docs/technical-overview/index.html#g... Performance is a design goal, but it is not given as the primary goal. Of course, a cynical observer might say that the real primary goal of Dart is to give Chrome an artificial performance advantage over competing browsers, since that will be, at the very least, an initial effect if Google succeeds in pro…

Google doesn't care if Chrome is perceived as faster. They want the entire web to be faster. They use Chrome to push the envelope.

I think you're pretty naïve if you think that "Google doesn't care if Chrome is perceived as faster". That's been the entire thrust of their marketing, quite literally from day one.

Re: Dartium: Google’s New Dart Programming Language Comes to Chromium

#14

Post by dchest »

espeed wrote: post #9
ConstantineXVI wrote: post #4

I hope Google isn't going to solely rely on Chrome having a Dart VM to increase Dart performance. As it stands; no other browser is interested in the Dart VM, so your app will only benefit from the speed in Chrome while other browsers are at the mercy of the efficiency of the Dart->JS compiler. If the compiler can produce near-JS performance I wish them and Dart developers well, otherwise using Dart will only handica…

I wonder if Google had Firefox-Dart support in mind when they put together the deal to pay Firefox $1 billion over the next three years ( http://venturebeat.com/2011/12/22/google-firefox-deal/ ).

No. People from Mozilla here on HN said that this deal doesn't influence technical decisions.

Re: Dartium: Google’s New Dart Programming Language Comes to Chromium

#15

Post by mistercow »

swannodette wrote: post #7
mistercow wrote: post #2

I wish Google would just embrace CoffeeScript instead of this. It's a prettier language, and already solves many of the problems Dart is concerned with.

While I don't think Dart is the most interesting language I've seen (optional types and mirrors aside), CoffeeScript doesn't try to solve any of the problems that Dart is attempting to address.

Look at the five design goals of Dart: http://www.dartlang.org/docs/technical-overview/index.html#g...

Of those five, the only one that CoffeeScript doesn't emphasize is "high performance/fast startup", which basically can't be a goal for a language without its own VM or JIT.

It seems to me that focusing on adding this one emphasis to CoffeeScript would make a lot more sense than making yet another not-exactly-Java.

Re: Dartium: Google’s New Dart Programming Language Comes to Chromium

#16

Post by sorenbs »

ootachi wrote: post #13
slewis wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google doesn't care if Chrome is perceived as faster. They want the entire web to be faster. They use Chrome to push the envelope.

I think you're pretty naïve if you think that "Google doesn't care if Chrome is perceived as faster". That's been the entire thrust of their marketing, quite literally from day one.

As it stands today a Chrome user is no more valuable to Google than an IE user (well, apart from google being default search provider). But any web user today is more valuable than a web user 3 years ago because the browsers deliver a much better experience now, causing the user to spend more time on the web. Chrome played a major part in this development.

Re: Dartium: Google’s New Dart Programming Language Comes to Chromium

#17

Post by georgemcbay »

rst wrote: post #11
sek wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary goal of dart is speed.

And yet, oddly, one of the front-page testimonials for node.js is LinkedIn saying that use of that particular brand of server-side Javascript gave them "huge performance gains". That obviously doesn't mean that Node (or Javascript in general) will perform well in every situation, but it does show at least an existence proof that JS is capable of high performance in some very demanding environments. What I haven't see…

So your justification for Dart being unnecessary is that the Javascript interpreter built by the people who are building Dart is really fast (for a Javascript engine)?

Don't you think that building V8 (the engine inside Node) may have given them some very good insight into the upper bounds of Javascript performance and insight into ways to fix them?

Re: Dartium: Google’s New Dart Programming Language Comes to Chromium

#18

Post by [deleted] »

espeed wrote: post #9
ConstantineXVI wrote: post #4

I hope Google isn't going to solely rely on Chrome having a Dart VM to increase Dart performance. As it stands; no other browser is interested in the Dart VM, so your app will only benefit from the speed in Chrome while other browsers are at the mercy of the efficiency of the Dart->JS compiler. If the compiler can produce near-JS performance I wish them and Dart developers well, otherwise using Dart will only handica…

I wonder if Google had Firefox-Dart support in mind when they put together the deal to pay Firefox $1 billion over the next three years ( http://venturebeat.com/2011/12/22/google-firefox-deal/ ).

[deleted]

Re: Dartium: Google’s New Dart Programming Language Comes to Chromium

#19

Post by georgemcbay »

sorenbs wrote: post #16
ootachi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're pretty naïve if you think that "Google doesn't care if Chrome is perceived as faster". That's been the entire thrust of their marketing, quite literally from day one.

As it stands today a Chrome user is no more valuable to Google than an IE user (well, apart from google being default search provider). But any web user today is more valuable than a web user 3 years ago because the browsers deliver a much better experience now, causing the user to spend more time on the web. Chrome played a major part in this development.

"As it stands today a Chrome user is no more valuable to Google than an IE user (well, apart from google being default search provider)"

I'm not sure your caveat is needed -- on a new installation the first thing Chrome does is ask you what search provider you want to use, you're just as free to pick Bing as Google.

Re: Dartium: Google’s New Dart Programming Language Comes to Chromium

#20

Post by mistercow »

sorenbs wrote: post #16
ootachi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're pretty naïve if you think that "Google doesn't care if Chrome is perceived as faster". That's been the entire thrust of their marketing, quite literally from day one.

As it stands today a Chrome user is no more valuable to Google than an IE user (well, apart from google being default search provider). But any web user today is more valuable than a web user 3 years ago because the browsers deliver a much better experience now, causing the user to spend more time on the web. Chrome played a major part in this development.

> (well, apart from google being default search provider)

That's a rather significant difference, you know.

But control over a given user's browser has incredible potential value for Google. Controlling both client and server means that you no longer have to sacrifice performance in the name of standards compliance (so long as you have a standards-compliant fallback mode for other browsers). What that means if you're Google is that a visitor using Chrome can 1) cost you fewer resources, and 2) walk away with a smoother, more satisfying experience.

Does Google currently take much advantage of this potential? I can't say for sure. But we are talking about a company that omits the on its homepage in the name of performance.

Post reply on HN