How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise? • Hacker News Board

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#11

Post by aidenn0 » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:25 PM UTC

scythe wrote: post #6

One thing I've been sort of curious about with non-carbothermal iron ore reduction is whether it could bring back wrought iron. Wrought iron disappeared around the 1960s due to high production costs — the crude product contains carbon, which must be removed by working — but iron produced with hydrogen or electricity will not have a chance to absorb carbon like this. There's more to it than that — you have to achieve…

Aren't some high-tensile steels rather equivalent to wrought iron?

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I couldn't find any high-tensile steel with C alloyed below 0.18%, which is more carbon than what Wikipedia lists for wrought iron.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#12

Post by TrainedMonkey » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:30 PM UTC

ranting-moth wrote: post #3

Is everyone decarbonising? India, China? I get the feeling they're laughing all that way to the bank. (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along)

This video summarizes this point pretty well - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJdqJu-6ZPo&t=201s

I don't know the solution because the problem is huge, but my strong suspicion is that focusing on industrial efficiency is the largest needle we can move. Specifically, making it economically sensible to use green technologies in developing countries.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#13

Post by goatlover » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:34 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #10

ranting-moth wrote: post #3

Is everyone decarbonising? India, China? I get the feeling they're laughing all that way to the bank. (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along)

> (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along) It's worth doing even if others don't. Especially for the wealthy countries -- the poor countries emit relatively little carbon per capita. The new energy transition is from op ex to cap ex. Looks expensive in the short term but a big win in the medium and long term. Plus you get the benefit of reduced emissions. Sure, other people do, but even if you're selfis…

The climate doesn’t care about per capita. The developing world has the majority of the population, so the majority of additional CO2 will be coming from there.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#14

Post by kieranmaine » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:35 PM UTC

ranting-moth wrote: post #3

Is everyone decarbonising? India, China? I get the feeling they're laughing all that way to the bank. (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along)

This is covered in the article:

"Europe’s steelmakers have one more strong incentive to get decarbonising. Under the eu emissions-trading system, they are currently awarded 80% of their allowances for CO2 emissions free of charge in order to remain competitive with dirtier producers in places like China and India. Over the next ten years the eu will phase out these freebies and replace them with a carbon tariff on dirty imports. If eu steelmakers stay grey, calculates Morgan Stanley, their profits could sink by up to 70%."

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#15

Post by ognarb » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

ranting-moth wrote: post #3

Is everyone decarbonising? India, China? I get the feeling they're laughing all that way to the bank. (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along)

I wonder if at some point the EU should block the usage of dirty steel and only authorize carbon neutral steel. This would provide a great incentive for other countries to also invest in clean alternative.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#16

Post by easytiger » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

Only in the absurd world of carbon credits is this required - something that is nearly impossible to do any other way - that contributes practically nothing to global CO2 vs the incredible benefit to society it proffers - has to stop. Why?

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#17

Post by bcrosby95 » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #10

ranting-moth wrote: post #3

Is everyone decarbonising? India, China? I get the feeling they're laughing all that way to the bank. (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along)

> (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along) It's worth doing even if others don't. Especially for the wealthy countries -- the poor countries emit relatively little carbon per capita. The new energy transition is from op ex to cap ex. Looks expensive in the short term but a big win in the medium and long term. Plus you get the benefit of reduced emissions. Sure, other people do, but even if you're selfis…

It's not the 20th century anymore. China's per capita emissions are higher than you're letting on. Higher than some European countries.

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#18

Post by penneallagricia » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:39 PM UTC

ognarb wrote: post #15

ranting-moth wrote: post #3

Is everyone decarbonising? India, China? I get the feeling they're laughing all that way to the bank. (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along)

I wonder if at some point the EU should block the usage of dirty steel and only authorize carbon neutral steel. This would provide a great incentive for other countries to also invest in clean alternative.

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Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#19

Post by quasarsunnix » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

ognarb wrote: post #15

ranting-moth wrote: post #3

Is everyone decarbonising? India, China? I get the feeling they're laughing all that way to the bank. (All in favour of it, just everyone has to play along)

I wonder if at some point the EU should block the usage of dirty steel and only authorize carbon neutral steel. This would provide a great incentive for other countries to also invest in clean alternative.

I think that's a great idea and could be applied to a lot of industries with large offshore carbon footprints. Maybe tariffs or quota limits that are linked to carbon?

Re: How fast can European steelmakers decarbonise?

#20

Post by dporter » Fri, May 12, 2023, 9:43 PM UTC

Zamicol wrote: post #9

The first solar-powered steel mill was recently built in Pueblo, Colorado: https://gizmodo.com/the-world-s-first-solar-powered-steel-mi...

The last paragraph of this article sums up a trend I keep seeing in this industry I don't like:

> But while decarbonizing heavy industry is a good thing, the folks behind this project are not my favorites. Lightsource BP is a joint venture between the steel company EVRAZ and the energy giant BP, as well as the utility giant Xcel Energy, which will provide the steel mill with fixed electricity rates through 2041. BP and Xcel wouldn’t exactly be my top choices to control the energy of the future, what with both companies’ histories of spewing out carbon emissions, greenwashing their polluting business plans, and screwing over workers. I personally don’t think these kinds of companies should get to make big profits on solar power or use it to paper over their destructive legacies. But hey, maybe that’s just me!

The alternative to this is what? Complete newcomers to the industry attempting to execute multi-million or -billion dollar projects? Anyone in an existing carbon-intensive industry is going to have a "climate unfriendly" reputation because they operate in a "climate unfriendly" industry. Attempting to block existing players in the industry from decarbonizing seems counterproductive.