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Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

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Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#11

Post by microtonal »

lars_francke wrote: post #4

I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new content and products. I have not been able to find a good entry point. The threads often reference shops, specific people, firmwares or discord communities without going into details. Does anyone happen to know a good resource for how and where to get started tod…

As someone who has made a bunch of keyboards (including hand wiring), I agree that the space is very hard to navigate. Especially since /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ has gone full "the only ergonomic keyboard is a hand-soldered keyboard that only 50 other people use", while for most people a prebuilt ergo keyboard would be fine and a large improvement over a $15 black slab.

What makes it worse is that most designs do no have any long-term group studies at all. E.g. Dactyl Manuform keyboards are quite popular, but many long-term users report thumb injuries from using Dactyl Manuforms. Who knows what injuries many of the custom designs can cause long-term? Most hobbyist keyboard designers are not trained medical professionals and basically don't have much of a clue what they are doing.

I would recommend people to start with prebuilt keyboards that have been around for a while and are pretty well-understood and in some cases had input from or testing by experts. Some examples:

- Fixed-split angled Microsoft keyboards (some models had extensive group studies, etc. Some models do break fairly quickly.)

- Logitech ERGO K860

- Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB. This is traditional keyboard but with split and optional tenting (both of which have been shown to be good in various studies, be sure to get the tenting kit).

- Kinesis Advantage, goes all-in with ergonomic features and requires relearning typing a bit. Has been around in various forms for 30 years and is well-understood. Most people who use one swear by it.

- Keyboardio Model 100. The precursor (Model 01) has been around for many years. The design seems sane and I haven't seen many complaints.

- ZSA Ergodox EZ/Moonlander: these are quite popular. But be careful, quite many people report having thumb issues after a while.

I don't know any proven designs with trackballs, I have seen some people complain about integrated trackballs becoming uncomfortable after a while.

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#12

Post by lylejantzi3rd »

lars_francke wrote: post #4

I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new content and products. I have not been able to find a good entry point. The threads often reference shops, specific people, firmwares or discord communities without going into details. Does anyone happen to know a good resource for how and where to get started tod…

Maybe https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ will be less intimidating? There are several designs on that subreddit if you search for "trackball." like this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/12uqw3c/...

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#13

Post by leononame »

microtonal wrote: post #11
lars_francke wrote: post #4

I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new content and products. I have not been able to find a good entry point. The threads often reference shops, specific people, firmwares or discord communities without going into details. Does anyone happen to know a good resource for how and where to get started tod…

As someone who has made a bunch of keyboards (including hand wiring), I agree that the space is very hard to navigate. Especially since /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ has gone full "the only ergonomic keyboard is a hand-soldered keyboard that only 50 other people use", while for most people a prebuilt ergo keyboard would be fine and a large improvement over a $15 black slab. What makes it worse is that most designs do no have…

I'm really looking for a good ergonomic keyboard right now (split or non-split). I'm using Redox, but the bamboo case is falling apart and sometimes I miss F-keys (it'd be nice to one-shot steps during debugging rather than having to press a key combination) or a physical numpad (for entering numbers I prefer the numpad, but I just don't love switching layers).

The Ergo K860 looks nice. I've also been eyeing the Kinesis Advantage 360, though it has no F-Keys. Another option would be the Glove80. The MS/Logitech keyboards are super cheap in comparison. Would you say not having ortholinear keys is a big difference for ergonomics?

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#14

Post by lars_francke »

microtonal wrote: post #11
lars_francke wrote: post #4

I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new content and products. I have not been able to find a good entry point. The threads often reference shops, specific people, firmwares or discord communities without going into details. Does anyone happen to know a good resource for how and where to get started tod…

As someone who has made a bunch of keyboards (including hand wiring), I agree that the space is very hard to navigate. Especially since /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ has gone full "the only ergonomic keyboard is a hand-soldered keyboard that only 50 other people use", while for most people a prebuilt ergo keyboard would be fine and a large improvement over a $15 black slab. What makes it worse is that most designs do no have…

Thank you very much for the detailed response. I'll look at all those options. I've been using a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 for ages and it is slowly disintegrating so I'll need a replacement in the next few years.

The quality has been great. It's lasted 15 or so years now.

I switched to an optimized keyboard layout (neo2 - German) in 2006 when I had carpal tunnel syndrome in both hands and then also switched to one of those ergonomic keyboards.

Now, I'm basically looking for a successor.

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#15

Post by lars_francke »

jerezzprime wrote: post #9
lars_francke wrote: post #4

I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new content and products. I have not been able to find a good entry point. The threads often reference shops, specific people, firmwares or discord communities without going into details. Does anyone happen to know a good resource for how and where to get started tod…

Which subreddit are you looking at? I am also interested in an ergo keyboard with an integrated trackball.

I've been subscribed to https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards for a year or so now and there is a lot of energy there.

It's just really hard to follow when you're only casually browsing.

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#16

Post by eviks »

totolouis wrote: post #5
amelius wrote: post #3

It's frustrating that nobody ever explains how to make your own key caps.

There is a company in California that let you design your own keycaps. It is called MaxKeyboard.

I see they do printed keycaps, is there any company that would allow having custom see-through forms in the keycaps that would support keyboard lights? E.g., in addition to QW letters that glow in the dark you could add your custom symbols that would also help you learn all the custom keybinds you've made

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#17

Post by lars_francke »

lylejantzi3rd wrote: post #12
lars_francke wrote: post #4

I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new content and products. I have not been able to find a good entry point. The threads often reference shops, specific people, firmwares or discord communities without going into details. Does anyone happen to know a good resource for how and where to get started tod…

Maybe https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ will be less intimidating? There are several designs on that subreddit if you search for "trackball." like this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/12uqw3c/...

That looks interesting! For me a pre-built one would probably be ideal, otherwise it'll end up with all the other half finished projects.

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#18

Post by aznblur »

lars_francke wrote: post #4

I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new content and products. I have not been able to find a good entry point. The threads often reference shops, specific people, firmwares or discord communities without going into details. Does anyone happen to know a good resource for how and where to get started tod…

Not sure if this is exactly what you're after, but check out https://bastardkb.com/ and their discord community.

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#19

Post by precompute »

microtonal wrote: post #11
lars_francke wrote: post #4

I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new content and products. I have not been able to find a good entry point. The threads often reference shops, specific people, firmwares or discord communities without going into details. Does anyone happen to know a good resource for how and where to get started tod…

As someone who has made a bunch of keyboards (including hand wiring), I agree that the space is very hard to navigate. Especially since /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ has gone full "the only ergonomic keyboard is a hand-soldered keyboard that only 50 other people use", while for most people a prebuilt ergo keyboard would be fine and a large improvement over a $15 black slab. What makes it worse is that most designs do no have…

There's no one-size-fits-all ergo keyboard, which is why the dactyl has a configurator. You need to make test prints for your hand / finger / thumb size and splay and decide accordingly. Same for the other non-bowl keyboards like corne/lily58/etc, some people just can't use them.

I've been using a corne for two years with absolutely no pain/issues (not that I had any issues before I started using it, though)

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#20

Post by jerezzprime »

avidiax wrote: post #10
jerezzprime wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which subreddit are you looking at? I am also interested in an ergo keyboard with an integrated trackball.

What I've done is take a Kinesis Advantage2 and add an Apple Magic Trackpad, like this: [1] I use museum wax as the mounting method, which allows slight adjustments but is otherwise a firm hold. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/kinesisadvantage/comments/s2n2k3/ki...

So it's only a small movement with one of your hands for mouse control? Seems like a simple solution.
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