Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire • Hacker News Board

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#11

Post by nologic01 » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 3:26 PM UTC

It is interesting how concepts of commercial secrecy and rule of law evolve over the centuries. In modern terms we might call this "knowledge transfer incident" a form of commercial espionage / intellectual property theft.

It is unclear if the affected entity ever imposed sanctions or other form of punishment on the perpetrator (presumably they did notice that there was no longer demand for their silk in certain markets??). It also appears that the perpetrators promptly established a monopoly of their own (on the basis of somebody else's know-how which is also somewhat odd with today's eyes :-).

Somehow it is all predicated on very sparse communication between different parts of the world. The flip side is that in today's hyper-connected world you might be able to tell if a secret has leaked just by triangulation.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#12

Post by peteradio » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 3:27 PM UTC

Silk has been produced for 3-4k years, can you imagine what a son-of-a-bitch that was back then? Was silk like gold and bitcoin? Somehow valuable because its such a bitch to produce? Feels like all of it is a goof on the people who accept it at face value.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#13

Post by Avicebron » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 3:35 PM UTC

peteradio wrote: post #12

Silk has been produced for 3-4k years, can you imagine what a son-of-a-bitch that was back then? Was silk like gold and bitcoin? Somehow valuable because its such a bitch to produce? Feels like all of it is a goof on the people who accept it at face value.

Silk definitely had(has) the immediate day to day use case of a comfortable fabric to wear, I can imagine that alone drove up demand. I'm sure it being difficult to produce increased it's value.

Sure gold and bitcoin are stores of value and currency, but we don't usually make our boxers out of them.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#14

Post by giraffe_lady » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 3:36 PM UTC

peteradio wrote: post #12

Silk has been produced for 3-4k years, can you imagine what a son-of-a-bitch that was back then? Was silk like gold and bitcoin? Somehow valuable because its such a bitch to produce? Feels like all of it is a goof on the people who accept it at face value.

Silk has unique characteristics as a material, and in a pre-plastic pre-industrial world with relatively few viable fabric materials (and all of them profoundly labor-intensive by modern standards) it would have been valuable regardless.

Obviously its rarity, social connotations, and mysterious origins had a huge effect on its value. But like gold, its characteristics alone are enough to cause people to go through the trouble to acquire it initially, enough for those other factors to take over.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#15

Post by peteradio » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 3:36 PM UTC

nologic01 wrote: post #11

It is interesting how concepts of commercial secrecy and rule of law evolve over the centuries. In modern terms we might call this "knowledge transfer incident" a form of commercial espionage / intellectual property theft. It is unclear if the affected entity ever imposed sanctions or other form of punishment on the perpetrator (presumably they did notice that there was no longer demand for their silk in certain mark…

You might have a pretty good clue of who did what but today's winning strategy is to never admit any fault and form coalitions of protection. I suspect that is the winning strategy always, just stonewall, its not particularly honorable but what has that ever won anybody, an honor trophy? You can get trophys by cheating too, and much more!

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#16

Post by peteradio » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 3:40 PM UTC

giraffe_lady wrote: post #14

peteradio wrote: post #12

Silk has been produced for 3-4k years, can you imagine what a son-of-a-bitch that was back then? Was silk like gold and bitcoin? Somehow valuable because its such a bitch to produce? Feels like all of it is a goof on the people who accept it at face value.

Silk has unique characteristics as a material, and in a pre-plastic pre-industrial world with relatively few viable fabric materials (and all of them profoundly labor-intensive by modern standards) it would have been valuable regardless. Obviously its rarity, social connotations, and mysterious origins had a huge effect on its value. But like gold, its characteristics alone are enough to cause people to go through th…

IMO we shouldn't have started wearing clothes to begin with, it was a bad call. If my ancestors could have just held off on that I'd have nice thick fur right now.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#17

Post by mytailorisrich » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

exhilaration wrote: post #6

I'm curious, is there a list somewhere of these world-changing industrial espionage incidents? Here's two more I remember off the top of my head. Not sure why the top results are the Smithsonian Magazine but here are some links: Samuel Slater brings cotton mill technology to America in 1789: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-industrial-esp... Robert Fortune learns Chinese tea production methods and brings…

The US actually encouraged "IP theft" well into the 19th century and did not recognise foreign copyright.

On their side the UK not only banned export of certain technologies to the US but they also banned emigration of the people knowledgeable about them.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#18

Post by mjhay » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 3:44 PM UTC

morkalork wrote: post #8

exhilaration wrote: post #6

I'm curious, is there a list somewhere of these world-changing industrial espionage incidents? Here's two more I remember off the top of my head. Not sure why the top results are the Smithsonian Magazine but here are some links: Samuel Slater brings cotton mill technology to America in 1789: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-industrial-esp... Robert Fortune learns Chinese tea production methods and brings…

>“Foreigners seemed to prefer having a mixture of Prussian blue and gypsum with their tea, to make it look uniform and pretty, and as these ingredients were cheap enough, the Chinese [have] no objection to [supplying] them as such teas always fetch . . . a higher price!” This quote and the preceding paragraph about the distrust of the Chinese tea manufacturers are quite something. I hadn't considered the "made in Chi…

Historically (before ~1800 let's say) China was known for its very high-quality goods. In fact, the Silk Road trade and later trade with the Spanish was almost exclusively Chinese goods flowing out and gold and silver specie flowing in - mainly because their domestic production was good enough that foreign goods couldn't compete. This was enough of a thing that the Romans became concerned at the amount of specie flowing out of the empire to pay for silk and other Chinese goods.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#19

Post by mistrial9 » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 3:47 PM UTC

peteradio wrote: post #12

Silk has been produced for 3-4k years, can you imagine what a son-of-a-bitch that was back then? Was silk like gold and bitcoin? Somehow valuable because its such a bitch to produce? Feels like all of it is a goof on the people who accept it at face value.

silk materials relate to a sensual world, where the touch, feel and quality of the physical embodiment is valued highly.. It is possible that English-style commerce downplays this sensual value, preferring all forms of money, e.g. rare coins, stamps, securities and financial agreements, as higher value. It is an example of a polarity.

There is a rumor that Bill Gates will not pay for art because "that is not worth money" .. he famously had giant digital screens hung in his thirty thousand square foot home, displaying reproductions of famous art without paying for them. Yet, he has spent millions of dollars building and acquiring software patents, which are applied with attorneys to generate many times that income. I suggest that is directly reflective of that cultural difference.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#20

Post by mihaic » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 3:48 PM UTC

exhilaration wrote: post #6

I'm curious, is there a list somewhere of these world-changing industrial espionage incidents? Here's two more I remember off the top of my head. Not sure why the top results are the Smithsonian Magazine but here are some links: Samuel Slater brings cotton mill technology to America in 1789: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-industrial-esp... Robert Fortune learns Chinese tea production methods and brings…

The fact that the world's production of nutmeg until the 19th century was restricted only to the remote Banda islands I think falls in that category. The Dutch protected their source with vigilance.