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China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

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Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#11
post #10

The Russian government's pre-war speeches and essays revealed that they consider all of Ukraine to be an illegitimate state that was unfairly carved out of Russia. They are not just talking about Donbas and Crimea. Russia has been somewhat effective in misleading the West into thinking that the conquest is only about Donbas and Crimea. Meanwhile Russian officials all the way up to Putin himself have been hinting or o…

> Russia has been somewhat effective in misleading the West into thinking that the conquest is only about Donbas and Crimea.

No one thinks that.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#12
post #6

I think this is commendable. Of course talk is cheap, but silence can be deadly. I hope that the usual people who live on a steady information diet of MSNBC, CNN and FOX news see this statement and hold western leadership accountable for making their own statements, and acting in support of, peaceful reconciliation.

Peaceful reconciliation is simple: Russia gets out and stays out of Ukraine, Russia extradites those Russians who have committed war crimes, and Russia pays reparations for the rebuilding of Ukraine. Putin can start doing that today if he's serious about peace. China should demand Putin to do these things if China is serious about peace. But they're not serious, are they.

so.. you are against peaceful reconciliation, because what you describe is unrealistic.

would a person that is capable of starting a war ever accept those terms ?

especially since pulling back now puts them in a worse state than before having invaded, with NATO expansion, losses etc

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peaceful reconciliation is simple: Russia gets out and stays out of Ukraine, Russia extradites those Russians who have committed war crimes, and Russia pays reparations for the rebuilding of Ukraine. Putin can start doing that today if he's serious about peace. China should demand Putin to do these things if China is serious about peace. But they're not serious, are they.

so.. you are against peaceful reconciliation, because what you describe is unrealistic. would a person that is capable of starting a war ever accept those terms ? especially since pulling back now puts them in a worse state than before having invaded, with NATO expansion, losses etc

> you are against peaceful reconciliation, because what you describe is unrealistic

what you describe is unrealistic. Russia keeps killing people and handing over the Ukraine to them is no option.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#14
Mostly sympathetic statements but the problem with any statement from a nondemocratic country is that it can change after a bad lunch by the dictator in charge. The problem addressed by the statement from China is entirely caused by Russia being a dictatorship that allows a single individual to control the military might of an entire nation.

Democracies have safeguards in place that complicates many radical actions, such as starting wars. So the long-term solution to problems like these is to get rid of all dictatorships, as peacefully as possible but with strong determination.

I'd like to see a UDN - a united democratic nations. The base rules should be that no country that has had the same person in the top two political positions of power for more than a decade can be part of the UDN and there should be steep barriers for trade with non-UDN nations.

This should be done while democratic countries still have the largest economies in the world, after that it's too late.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#17

I like the wishful thinking, even if I think it is impossible that china believes statements such as: 2. Abandoning the Cold War mentality. The security of a country should not be pursued at the expense of others. The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. The legitimate security interests and concerns of all countries must be taken seriously and addressed properly.…

The Russian leadership's pre-war speeches and essays stated that Ukraine is not a legitimate country and that Ukraine was unfairly carved out of Russian. This is based on a widespread Russian belief that the Ukrainian identity was created by Poland and the Austro-Hungarian Empire to divide Russia.

China and American Conservatives are an demanding immediate halt of Western support for Ukraine followed by "peace talks". What exactly is there to talk about when Russia doesn't even recognize Ukraine's right to exist?

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#18
post #10

The Russian government's pre-war speeches and essays revealed that they consider all of Ukraine to be an illegitimate state that was unfairly carved out of Russia. They are not just talking about Donbas and Crimea. Russia has been somewhat effective in misleading the West into thinking that the conquest is only about Donbas and Crimea. Meanwhile Russian officials all the way up to Putin himself have been hinting or o…

> Russia has been somewhat effective in misleading the West into thinking that the conquest is only about Donbas and Crimea. No one thinks that.

The chief twit with 130 million followers thinks that...

"Ukraine-Russia Peace:

- Redo elections of annexed regions under UN supervision. Russia leaves if that is will of the people.

- Crimea formally part of Russia, as it has been since 1783 (until Khrushchev’s mistake).

- Water supply to Crimea assured.

- Ukraine remains neutral."

That's clearly: If Ukraine gives away Donbas and Crimea, Russia will leave.

There seems to be millions of twits that have forgotten that Russia assaulted Kyiv, Kharkiv, Mykolaiv, Chernihiv, and Sumy oblasts

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1576969255031296000

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#19
post #14

Mostly sympathetic statements but the problem with any statement from a nondemocratic country is that it can change after a bad lunch by the dictator in charge. The problem addressed by the statement from China is entirely caused by Russia being a dictatorship that allows a single individual to control the military might of an entire nation. Democracies have safeguards in place that complicates many radical actions,…

I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-...

This page explains how grassroots democracy and public participation works in China. https://news.cgtn.com/event/2021/who-runs-the-cpc/index.html

This is a good overview of how the party is structured, and how people participate in the governing process. This is fundamentally different from how electoral parties work in western countries. https://news.cgtn.com/event/2019/whorunschina/index.html

The party in China is predominantly composed of working class people as opposed to a ruling political class as seen in the west. This goes a long way in helping ensure that the interests of the government align with the interests of the working majority http://www.chinatoday.com/org/cpc/

Furthermore, a study spanning many decades of US policy shows that US can hardly be called a democracy in practical terms:

    What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peaceful reconciliation is simple: Russia gets out and stays out of Ukraine, Russia extradites those Russians who have committed war crimes, and Russia pays reparations for the rebuilding of Ukraine. Putin can start doing that today if he's serious about peace. China should demand Putin to do these things if China is serious about peace. But they're not serious, are they.

so.. you are against peaceful reconciliation, because what you describe is unrealistic. would a person that is capable of starting a war ever accept those terms ? especially since pulling back now puts them in a worse state than before having invaded, with NATO expansion, losses etc

> pulling back now puts them in a worse state than before having invaded, with NATO expansion, losses etc

Putin created his own problems and he has made Russia weaker. It's well past time for him to find the honesty to admit it.

Putin made his choices. He gets to live them.

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