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OODA Loop

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Re: OODA Loop

#11

Post by RealityVoid »

AstralStorm wrote: post #7
philip1209 wrote: post #5

I have fond memories of my Krav Maga instructor casually saying "reset their OODA loop" in place of "punch them in the face" during lessons.

Casually a trained badass (or a sufficiently unhinged person) will ignore that punch and proceed to destroy you. So unless you're a super trained boxer and can knock out everyone in one, it's a waste of time. You lost the element of surprise and tempo. If you want to do some damage, do it, not rely on the opponent obliging or complying.

Certainly it's better to punch them than not punch them. Many many times overwhelming violence is sufficient to win a fight. Trained people might not be as phased, true.

Re: OODA Loop

#12

Post by notShabu »

FYI vgr of Ribbonfarm has a significant body of work expanding on the OODA loop, including a book "Tempo".

https://studio.ribbonfarm.com/p/the-use-and-misuse-of-the-oo...

If I were to summarize it to a 5 year old I'd use the analogy of rhythm games like taiko drum master. Once you make a mistake your timing is thrown completely off and everything going forward is wrong unless you can get your timing back. OODA is way of thinking about things to help you "get into the rhythm" of a situation faster than an opponent.

Re: OODA Loop

#13

Post by NoraCodes »

I always find formalized metacognitive tools like this very interesting. Having ingrained "memory items" that can be called on as if they were instinctual requires a huge training investment, and for highly dangerous situations the tradeoff of time spent to value is much clearer than for, say, software engineers. That said, having the right metacognitive tools deeply embedded in one's thought pattern might still be very valuable for those of us that fly desks rather than jets!

Re: OODA Loop

#15

Post by zoenolan »

Some previous discussions

The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions (2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26465766

The OODA Loop and the Half-Beat (2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22601681

Ask HN: How do you apply Boyd's OODA Loop in your life? (2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16447690

Re: OODA Loop

#16

Post by _glass »

This reminds of the concept of D.I.E. that we use in the social sciences, describe, interpret, and evaluate. It is important to separate the stages clearly, because if you interpret while describing, this taints your observations. Evaluate can be seen as a precursor to action, because it is from the implications where science then moves forward.

Re: OODA Loop

#17

Post by taeric »

cjmb wrote: post #8

I highly recommend reading Boyd's transcript of a talk he gave in 1989 instead of the wiki on this stuff: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5497331ae4b0148a6141b... It will resonate with any builders in the HN audience and give a ton of context behind the thinking here. > You know, some people like to be regarded as being an analyst. They think that’s a term of endearment. I treat it as a personal insult if some…

Would be amazing if that talk is available as a recording somewhere. I was several pages in before I looked at how big the transrcipt is. Will have to come back to it. Huge thanks for posting it!

Re: OODA Loop

#18

Post by hencq »

taeric wrote: post #17
cjmb wrote: post #8

I highly recommend reading Boyd's transcript of a talk he gave in 1989 instead of the wiki on this stuff: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5497331ae4b0148a6141b... It will resonate with any builders in the HN audience and give a ton of context behind the thinking here. > You know, some people like to be regarded as being an analyst. They think that’s a term of endearment. I treat it as a personal insult if some…

Would be amazing if that talk is available as a recording somewhere. I was several pages in before I looked at how big the transrcipt is. Will have to come back to it. Huge thanks for posting it!

Some Googling led me to this: https://geekboss.com/blog/boyd-patterns-of-conflict It does have 4 youtube videos that seem to be of a presentation he gave, though I don't think it's the same one as the transcript (apologies, I haven't watched them yet, only briefly skipped through them). They are a bit potato quality, but might still be of use.

Re: OODA Loop

#19

Post by meltyness »

NoraCodes wrote: post #13

I always find formalized metacognitive tools like this very interesting. Having ingrained "memory items" that can be called on as if they were instinctual requires a huge training investment, and for highly dangerous situations the tradeoff of time spent to value is much clearer than for, say, software engineers. That said, having the right metacognitive tools deeply embedded in one's thought pattern might still be v…

This is not untrue, but a more applicable interpretation of this conceptual framework might go as follows:

In an AAR[0] operators explain risks, causes, and limitations of the system. This provides a formal structured language for describing how, precisely, supporting systems can be improved and how they impact all specific aspects of operator interaction.

Since the operator is viewed simply as a networked control-system in this case, the cognitive path from structure, supporting physical system, and then physical quantities needing improvement is unmistakably clear, as is required in successful planning, acquisitions, operations, and maintenance.[1]

Essentially it makes subjective experience concrete, and is prophylactic against bikeshedding/blame-gaming.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After-action_review

[1] https://youtu.be/ir0FAa8P2MU?t=1340

Re: OODA Loop

#20

Post by hosh »

_glass wrote: post #16

This reminds of the concept of D.I.E. that we use in the social sciences, describe, interpret, and evaluate. It is important to separate the stages clearly, because if you interpret while describing, this taints your observations. Evaluate can be seen as a precursor to action, because it is from the implications where science then moves forward.

OODA is a lot more than that. Since it is something developed for adversarial interactions, you’re also talking about disrupting or overwhelming the adversary’s OODA. Or another way is feeding the OODA bad intel (tainting their observations), and then stepping up the tempo so that they are making worse decisions faster. Another is taking advantage of the adversary’s “frame” (the orientation) and using that to drive the adversary into diverging from reality. (Sun Tzu talks about direct and indirect actions for that).

There’s also a version of OODA where things become intuitive and there are shortcuts within OODA as well.

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