Live data from Hacker News

Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

xmodtwo.com

11–20 of 1001 posts

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#11
> we have a counterculture — many of them, in fact — but they are systematically excluded from seeping into the mainstream

I don't understand this and by extension the entire article. Counterculture is by definition outside of mainstream. It would just be culture and not anti otherwise. This sounds like semantics but then that is what I think the entire article is, and imho it is wrong.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#12

I do have to admit there are effectively no "dark corners" anymore. The percentage of the population that can be involved in a new cultural movement without its details becoming common knowledge is getting smaller and smaller.

A corner is still a corner. The vast majority of people don't care about corners, whether they are illuminated or not.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#13
Art today is definitely and absolutely still made with love and passion. Films like Everything Everywhere All At Once (or the recent episode of The Last Of Us) take a popular concept or franchise and make it their own. Fanfiction is still at crazy levels, thanks to websites like AO3. The book industry still has outstanding popular modern works which stand on their own and refuse to let genre define them. (Becky Chambers is my favourite for this, with her hygge scifi). There's also a whole host of internet culture - lots of tumblr tags and subreddits - that are actively filled with sharing, passion and community, not for good art that sells, but something that lifts the spirit in its own weird way.

Anecdotes aside, at least for independent artists it may be economical effects that constrain passion and make projects feel so for-profit. Which have always been a thing, unfortunately. Given technology, maybe there is so much art to consume that making art requires forgoing distraction and the general worry that the art will be bad (which is nonsense, because some art simply has a limited audience).

In today's era, stuff like EU art grants [0] can do some good, although I have the feeling that patronage-per-capita is considerably lower than it was in the past; it would be an interesting metric to look at and try best to increase.

[0]: https://culture.ec.europa.eu/funding/cultureu-funding-guide

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#14
post #2

The moment in which techies realize that they became the mainstream, and counterculture is elsewhere.

There is a mis-perception in your statement, in that :

1. "techies" are some uniform block of people.

2. "techies" as a whole were at any point an anti-mainstream counterculture.

Many/most techies throughout history have been employed by the rich and powerful - individuals, private corporations, government institutions, religious institutions (if we go back far enough). So, the extent to which they are part of a counter-culture is through a critical evaluation of their own roles. There are also "independent" techies, of course - but those too often from well-off social strata and do not have much of a mind to subvert dominant culture on the social level (as opposed to in their personal habits).

... and I personally can't read the article since the corporate firewall I'm behind is blocking it, so that's kind of ironic :-(

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#15

I think there never was stronger counterculture than today - but the platforms for this changed. A few decades ago an avant-garde film or student project could make ripples in the film industry and gain a cult following. However, I think that anyone under 20 (possibly under 30) sees cinema as far less important than the previous generation. YouTube (and TikTok) stars became bigger than movie stars, and more young peo…

I think there never was stronger counterculture than today

I disagree. Can you expand on your claim?

YouTube and TikTok are not countercultural, even if some users are using those platforms for genuine countercultural creative acts. By definition, a social media "influencer" with millions of followers is not countercultural.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#16
I see the counter culture over the last few years as the less obnoxious elements of the alt-right/conservative and centrist/"classic liberal" in their opposition to the overreach and oppression by the "liberal"/left especially in their domination of big tech and classic media.

However, as the recognition of that unpleasant latter tendency has become mainstream and everybody and her grandma now knows what "woke" means, I can see a new counter, hopefully genuinely less partisan and not tipped the other (ie right wing) way as the old guard is kicked out (as we have seen with Twitter etc).

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#18
post #7

I do have to admit there are effectively no "dark corners" anymore. The percentage of the population that can be involved in a new cultural movement without its details becoming common knowledge is getting smaller and smaller.

There are more dark corners than ever... and they are as dark as it gets. You just don't want/know how to look for them and they are also as private as it gets.

There's a lot more fragmentation. The few common grounds, the most popular music, 'content creators', ideas and current events get amplified by news sites relying on ads, algorithms seeking maximum engagement.

It's hard to promote a fringe issue in a wide content channel and there's a lack of everything in between fringe and mainstream.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#19
IMHO, this is simply born of the new age of surveillance: an internet that never forgets, tracks you unless you take excessive inconveniences to avoid it, and cheap cameras everywhere. Not only is creating counterculture hard to do for fear of reprisal, but also consuming it.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#20
I'm pretty sure I've been existing in a number of counter-cultures for the last decade or two. These have been either linked to my identity or physical location, I couldn't have properly experienced them through consuming media on the subject. Certainly all required an active choice and/or lifestyle change on my part.

Maybe people mean something else by counter-culture, but here are examples from my life:

- Freelancing/contracting, and actively living substantially below my means. This has given me free time in a way that really changed my view on the world and allowed me to be around other people who were not in the 9-5 working world.

- Sexuality & ENM, plus living in a large city. There is a huge non-obvious culture of LQBTQIA people in this culture which often have very different outlooks on life to the mainstream.

- Communal living. Living in a warehouse with people from very different walks of life. I was exposed to so many fascinating ideas and people this way. It was a truly magical time of my life in which I also played a part in supporting the queer/ENM sub-culture of my city.

- Buying land and living off grid. There is a whole sub-culture of people doing this, both online and (more importantly) physically around me.

So I think counter-culture is available but – having written the above – I'm not sure if I am agreeing and disagreeing with the OP. On one hand it exists, but on the other hand I'm saying that it is very hard to access without making material changes to one's life.

Post reply on HN