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Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

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Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#11

I hate to pick apart Fowler -- probably a good way for folks to call me an idiot -- but I have to. here are (roughly) 50% women in the world, so we should expect the ratio for women in computing to be 50% - unless there's real evidence that some other ratio is natural.[2] So far there's no such evidence. But, er, doesn't the observation that the actual ratio is different evidence constitute "evidence"? Aside from dir…

Is he arguing that since a certain type of rhetoric has been used to ill purpose in the past that it should be looked upon extra critically now?

All rhetoric should be looked at critically, and there's nothing wrong with being extra critical of rhetoric that's historically dubious.

What's your initial response to the phrase "separate but equal"?

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#12
post #6

> A diverse group is usually more effective. Does this mean the problem will take care of itself? That is, if it is true that a diverse group is usually more effective, the products and startups that succeed should have teams which tend to be more diverse than the ones that fail. And as that happens, founders interested in succeeding would pay more attention to the diversity of their firms.

Not necessarily, because it's starting from inequality.

Here's a simple example. Assume hypothetically that due to historical differences the vast majority of investment decisions are made by a non-diverse demographic who prefer to invest in people like themselves. So even though the diverse groups outperform, it may not be enough to overcome the "unfair advantage" of easier access to capital.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#13
I was under the impression that most people had accepted that the reason more men than women do software development is that more men find it interesting than women do, not because women are less intelligent or because there's a conspiracy to keep them out. Too bad, I guess not.

As an aside, my boss at the moment is a woman, and a few years ago she had to staff up significantly and hired several young women at the junior level. The interesting thing is that her team hasn't really changed because of "the diversity" since it turns out that women who like programming act pretty much like the men who like programming: they're kind of socially awkward, have sometimes unreasonable expectations that the world will be a meritocracy, make a fetish out of liking cartoons and movies that most people don't, and so on.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#14

I hate to pick apart Fowler -- probably a good way for folks to call me an idiot -- but I have to. here are (roughly) 50% women in the world, so we should expect the ratio for women in computing to be 50% - unless there's real evidence that some other ratio is natural.[2] So far there's no such evidence. But, er, doesn't the observation that the actual ratio is different evidence constitute "evidence"? Aside from dir…

the difference here is on the meaning of "natural". you're taking it to mean something like "what we have" and then your argument makes sense: we see what we have because of some process that exists (is natural). but fowler is using "natural" in a sense more like "unbiased by historical accident" or "what we would get if a bunch of people were suddenly created out of nothing and formed a society from zero". so there'…

Great comment. Thanks.

Yes, you are correct. I made an edit to that effect.

If I observe something, it is occurring, correct? Or I could not have observed it.

The question becomes why is it occurring? We can observe "simple" things like trees and rocks and disagree on the reasons happen the way they do.

I'm not trying to argue from ignorance here. Certainly you could ask each and every person and draw some general conclusions. But that kind of approach is very fluffy and you could spin the results to say just about anything you wanted. If you have a master's degree in computer science and decided to be stay-at-home dad, is that because the system is flawed? Perhaps you just prefer being with your kids? Most people don't make those kinds of decisions for any one reason. It's complex.

Like I said, I love diversity. I think my biggest problem is this continuing thing we do where we define diversity as external characteristics. It's the internet age. I could care less what your sexual organs are or skin color is.

EDIT: Just to be sure I am advancing the discussion, the moral question is this: Assume I run a company with 100 employees. Only 20 of them are a member of a sub-group that is 30% in the larger population. Is it the moral thing for me to do to hire another 10 people of this subgroup, even if it means not hiring people of another group that might be better qualified just so the ratios match up?

If the answer to that question is "yes", then I have two follow-up questions. One, how many kinds of subgroups do I need to track? One-armed people? People who have beards? Who gets to decide what subgroups are special or not? Two, is it moral for a voter to make somebody do something because they personally find that it has a moral outcome? If I wanted people to be nicer in the world, could I pass a law that required all of them to give 10% to charity? Does something I feel morally outraged about automatically mean I should go mucking around with somebody else's freedom? If so, where's the stopping point?

As for Jim Crow laws, please note that I am not saying that society shouldn't evolve. I'd argue that some degree of legislating morality is necessary for society to move along -- even though I find it most distasteful. But there should be time limits on these things. That's why I bring up the internet. I really don't need grandpa's generation telling me how I should think. This is something each generation needs to settle for itself.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#15
post #10

I don't get this. Maybe it's because I'm a white male, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Why is there such a resistance to the idea that there might be differences in what groups of people are interested in at any given time? Not an issue of genetics or competence, but a complicated web of social influences that make people less likely to be interested in one path or the other? If there are truly unjust and disc…

I think his entire point is to call out that complicated web of social influences as the problem.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#16

I hate to pick apart Fowler -- probably a good way for folks to call me an idiot -- but I have to. here are (roughly) 50% women in the world, so we should expect the ratio for women in computing to be 50% - unless there's real evidence that some other ratio is natural.[2] So far there's no such evidence. But, er, doesn't the observation that the actual ratio is different evidence constitute "evidence"? Aside from dir…

People: please make some attempt at a precise and concise argument. I read your whole argument -- it could have been said with 75% fewer words. The worst part is that, even with all these words, you went directly past the point!

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#19
post #6

> A diverse group is usually more effective. Does this mean the problem will take care of itself? That is, if it is true that a diverse group is usually more effective, the products and startups that succeed should have teams which tend to be more diverse than the ones that fail. And as that happens, founders interested in succeeding would pay more attention to the diversity of their firms.

The bottleneck to success isn't simply the effectiveness of implementation groups. You've heard the old line of it being about who you know instead of what you know?

There are (real and perceived) barriers to entry, entrenched good-old-boys networks, gatekeepers, stereotypes, etc. Even if it's more like a minor obstacle than a brick wall, those tiny disparities add up can make a huge difference.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#20
post #15
post #10

I don't get this. Maybe it's because I'm a white male, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Why is there such a resistance to the idea that there might be differences in what groups of people are interested in at any given time? Not an issue of genetics or competence, but a complicated web of social influences that make people less likely to be interested in one path or the other? If there are truly unjust and disc…

I think his entire point is to call out that complicated web of social influences as the problem.

Why is it a problem?
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