Live data from Hacker News

In which Eben Moglen calls out a reporter for having Facebook

betabeat.com

11–20 of 109 posts

Re: In which Eben Moglen calls out a reporter for having Facebook

#11
This article makes me angry, and the groupthink of most the replies I read here supporting Moglen make me angry too.

You know what causes a real ecological disaster?

Washing Machines.

Yes, FUCKING washing machines.

They use too much of one of the worlds rarest resources (clean water), contribute to global warming and pollute the waste water with phosphates.

On the other hand, they have freed up half the worlds workforce from backbreaking manual labor and contributed to society enough that no less than Hans Rosling calls them the greatest invention of the industrial revolution[1]

Facebook allows companies to sell advertising and allows law enforcement to track you.

On the other hand, it allows quicker and easier communication than ever before, and contributed to the Arab Spring to the point where the revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt are known as "the Facebook revolutions" [2][3]

Convenience has costs, but who is Moglen to judge if those costs are worthwhile for everyone?

[1] http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_and_the_magic_washing_... (watch this video - it's really good)

[2] http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/09/so-was...

[3] http://www.technologyreview.com/web/38379/

Edit: To all those claiming this is a strawman - it's not. Moglen failed to point out the benefits of social networking, and I'm using an analogy to show that most things have costs and benefits. Please don't get distracted into an argument about that.

I'd love to see people try and explain how Moglen is right about Twitter (which has much lower privacy costs than Facebook).

Re: In which Eben Moglen calls out a reporter for having Facebook

#12
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I can see how he's right about users tempting banks, but why would reporters who write about this need to close their Facebook accounts?

Because it would be like an American who complains for the violence of Mexico but buys illegal marijuana and cocaine. He is the cause; but all he does is hoping that others will stop the violence some other way rather than he quitting drugs.

[deleted]

Re: In which Eben Moglen calls out a reporter for having Facebook

#13
I'm kind of amazed at some of the completely unsympathetic responses on here and on the original article. There are two distinct issues I see here: 1) whether or not Moglen's tone/attitude was appropriate, and 2) if his arguments were valid. Personally I think he was a bit harsh on her and could have at least expressed his feelings in a more diplomatic manner. She's a journalist calling about a story, not someone on trial. The moralist scolding seemed a bit much.

I also think his premise is a bit extreme... Social Media can be used recklessly, but so can many things. Suddenly people are saying that if your friends are on Facebook then you should get new friends... I must admit this sentiment sounds extremely reactionary and way over the top. We seem to be operating under the assumption that all information shared about another human being is potentially dangerous... Really? I'm pretty sure that most of what gets shared on Facebook is fairly innocuous, if not utterly mundane.

Re: In which Eben Moglen calls out a reporter for having Facebook

#14
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I can see how he's right about users tempting banks, but why would reporters who write about this need to close their Facebook accounts?

Because it would be like an American who complains for the violence of Mexico but buys illegal marijuana and cocaine. He is the cause; but all he does is hoping that others will stop the violence some other way rather than he quitting drugs.

Or like a reporter writing about global warming while owning an automobile... Wait a second...

Re: In which Eben Moglen calls out a reporter for having Facebook

#15
post #2

"Banks aren’t the problem, he said; the users tempting banks with their Twitter and Facebook postings are the problem. As are reporters who write about privacy issues with social media without first closing their Facebook accounts." You know he's right, don't you?

You can use Facebook in a way that doesn't endanger your personal privacy, it can be primarily a consumption platform for the endangered privacy of all of your associates. :)

The people in your network and their habits might tell more about you than you think. http://www.google.nl/search?q=social+network+graph+analysis .

Not to forget the images tagged with your name ...

Re: In which Eben Moglen calls out a reporter for having Facebook

#16
post #11

This article makes me angry, and the groupthink of most the replies I read here supporting Moglen make me angry too. You know what causes a real ecological disaster? Washing Machines. Yes, FUCKING washing machines. They use too much of one of the worlds rarest resources (clean water), contribute to global warming and pollute the waste water with phosphates. On the other hand, they have freed up half the worlds workfo…

I agree that washing machines are great. I've lived in places without them for years at a time. It's doable but hand washing is time consuming and not fun. Phosphates are a separate issue. There is phosphate free detergent. There are low water use machines. It's being solved.

Let's look at another example of convenience that isn't being solved very well: my car.

My car is incredibly convenient. Often I'd rather drive than take the bus. And you can't beat it for hauling stuff around. Better than my bike, for sure.

Cars have freed up the world's pedestrians from footwrecking walking!

But there's a lot going on here. Cars, roads, the death of public transport (cf trolly cars in LA http://www.usc.edu/libraries/archives/la/historic/redcars/ ). America, at least, was sold on the car by businesses that had a vested interest in seeing the car succeed. Cities dismantled public transport systems at the behest of these same powerful lobbies.

And today our cities are outgrowths of the personal motor vehicle. (Electric cars don't solve anything here, it's still energy being produced).

While I think that you make a point worth considering, I believe that we should error on the side of suspicion when utility, or less nobly, convenience, comes at an initially small cost and is heavily promoted by... whom, exactly?

I worked in advertising long enough to look squarely to the data-finance industrial complex (tongue only partially in cheek when using that phrase) whenever personal information is involved.

Convenience has costs. Moglen may not have the right to judge but we need noisy people that remind us there is a problem.

Re: In which Eben Moglen calls out a reporter for having Facebook

#17
post #3
post #2

"Banks aren’t the problem, he said; the users tempting banks with their Twitter and Facebook postings are the problem. As are reporters who write about privacy issues with social media without first closing their Facebook accounts." You know he's right, don't you?

Well I can see how he's right about users tempting banks, but why would reporters who write about this need to close their Facebook accounts?

Did you read the article?

Re: In which Eben Moglen calls out a reporter for having Facebook

#18
post #13

I'm kind of amazed at some of the completely unsympathetic responses on here and on the original article. There are two distinct issues I see here: 1) whether or not Moglen's tone/attitude was appropriate, and 2) if his arguments were valid. Personally I think he was a bit harsh on her and could have at least expressed his feelings in a more diplomatic manner. She's a journalist calling about a story, not someone on…

He was harsh. But reporters should have thick skins. And his harsh attitude delivered...

• for her and her site, a full-length story of the call, garnering inlinks and traffic

• for him, a detailed description of his views, totally beyond the original 'quote in a box' form-journalism role they wanted him to play

• for us, a discussion thread seeded by an interesting, strong, contrarian opinion

Why be diplomatic if that would result in none of the above?

I think you're missing his point about privacy, that "everything they share is held by someone who is no friend of theirs… whose goal it is to make a profit selling the ability to control human beings by knowing more about themselves than they know." And, "You injure other people today also using social media. You’ve informed on them. You’ve created more records about them. You’ve added to the problems not of yourself but of other people. If it were as simple as just you’re only hurting yourself I wouldn’t bother pointing it out to you."

The collectors would like you to think the data you're sharing is 'innocuous' and 'mundane' but they have algorithms and statistical confidences that say it isn't.

On the other hand, I think Moglen is hopelessly standing athwart history yelling 'stop' on this issue. Technology would make these behaviors trivial to monitor even if most people opted out (instead of cheerfully opting in). So I tend more towards the David Brin/'Transparent Society' view, that the only workable adaptation will be transparency/accountability and new social mores, because privacy is on its deathbed.

Re: In which Eben Moglen calls out a reporter for having Facebook

#19
post #11

This article makes me angry, and the groupthink of most the replies I read here supporting Moglen make me angry too. You know what causes a real ecological disaster? Washing Machines. Yes, FUCKING washing machines. They use too much of one of the worlds rarest resources (clean water), contribute to global warming and pollute the waste water with phosphates. On the other hand, they have freed up half the worlds workfo…

Wow, that's quite a straw man you have there.

Washing machines are tools. Facebook is a platform. If Mr. Moglen was attacking the postal service or mobile phones, you'd have a point. But he is talking about a centralized service that gives unprecedented power to the ones in control of the service and the jurisdictions it falls under.

I can stand in front of my washing machine and say, with total clarity, that I'm the only one in charge of it at that time. If I had a facebook account, there would be no such thing. And that doesn't even get to Mr. Moglens deeper point - that usage of facebook spreads the problem into your social graph.

As for the "facebook revolutions" you cite - that's quite a rosy picture you paint there. In reality, those services were used to track protesters and there have been coordinating handouts urging participants not to use social media for that reason. Furthermore, after these 'revolutions' have cooled down, it's still unclear what we will end up with. I would conclude that at most, those services served as catalysts and their convenience came at quite a cost indeed. But it's not Arab Youth + Facebook = Functioning Democracy.

Re: In which Eben Moglen calls out a reporter for having Facebook

#20
post #11

This article makes me angry, and the groupthink of most the replies I read here supporting Moglen make me angry too. You know what causes a real ecological disaster? Washing Machines. Yes, FUCKING washing machines. They use too much of one of the worlds rarest resources (clean water), contribute to global warming and pollute the waste water with phosphates. On the other hand, they have freed up half the worlds workfo…

Facebook [...] contributed to the Arab Spring to the point where the revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt are known as "the Facebook revolutions"

They're certainly known as "Facebook revolutions" (or "Twitter uprisings" or whatever) by foreign media organisations looking for a gimmicky hook to hang a story on, but I honestly doubt that regular Tunisians and Egyptians really use that phrase themselves other than as talking heads when dealing with said media organisations.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that most people just call it "last year."

Post reply on HN