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Appalachian Apple hunter who rescued 1k ‘lost’ varieties (2021)

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Re: Appalachian Apple hunter who rescued 1k ‘lost’ varieties (2021)

#11

Post by masklinn »

mooreds wrote: post #8
GnarfGnarf wrote: post #6

Ironically, you will never find the best-tasting apples in your local grocery store. The tastiest apples are often smaller, brown or dark skin, not the big red 'juicy' apples the uninformed consumer thinks are the best. Viz. the Red "Delicious", whose flavor was bred out in favor of color and appearance. It is now insipid and flavorless. In the Annapolis Valley of Nova Scotia, the humble-looking Cox Orange is sweet a…

> Ironically, you will never find the best-tasting apples in your local grocery store. I'm not sure it's "ironic". I think it is a case of "you get what you optimize for". Grocery stores optimize for: * cost * transportability * shelf life * appearance And all for good reason! That's what makes money. Doesn't matter if you have the best tasting apple in the world if shipping it on a truck destroys 90% of them and you…

And for chains don’t forget uniformity / repeatability.

There can be local variations but the chain usually wants a baseline for staples.

Re: Appalachian Apple hunter who rescued 1k ‘lost’ varieties (2021)

#12

Post by Waterluvian »

masklinn wrote: post #10
Waterluvian wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard the same thing about the American fig tree being basically candy compared to what we’ve got today. It explains why carollers wanted figgy pudding so badly.

It’s the case of pretty much every grown food product. As a comment above it comes down to the incentives / optimisations of a grocery store.

In this case I think the American fig fell victim to disease more than optimization. But perhaps those are related too.

Re: Appalachian Apple hunter who rescued 1k ‘lost’ varieties (2021)

#13

Post by walnutclosefarm »

Although I appreciate the work folks like Tom Brown do, the notion that he has actually rescued 1000 varieties is a bit of a stretch. An apple variety is only really rescued when it has found a home in commerce and some significant consumer base wants it. Otherwise it's just on life support in a museum, and maybe in a few home orchardists' little collections of trees - it's perpetuation still hanging by a thread. In particular, trees grafted, as Brown's are, onto dwarf roootstock, sometimes mutiple varieties per tree, and maintained by an 80 year old retiree, could all be gone again in a decade or two, even if his records are meticulous. Dwarf apple trees don't live long, and a single ice storm or hurricane could kill hundreds of varieties in a single pass.

This is not to dis Tom's work, only to say, the actual rescue is very tenuous.

Re: Appalachian Apple hunter who rescued 1k ‘lost’ varieties (2021)

#14

Post by walnutclosefarm »

GnarfGnarf wrote: post #6

Ironically, you will never find the best-tasting apples in your local grocery store. The tastiest apples are often smaller, brown or dark skin, not the big red 'juicy' apples the uninformed consumer thinks are the best. Viz. the Red "Delicious", whose flavor was bred out in favor of color and appearance. It is now insipid and flavorless. In the Annapolis Valley of Nova Scotia, the humble-looking Cox Orange is sweet a…

"Bred out" is a bit of a misnomer here. Apples varieties are propagated clonally through grafting. However, each new cloned tree originates from a single twig of a previous tree, and that twig originates from a single cell of the donor tree. Since cell division is not a perfect process, point mutations can accumulate over the generations from this process. In the case of Red Delicious, selections of point mutations (known as "sports") for storage life, color, and conical shape have resulted in the uninspiring, insipid thing we call a Red Delicious apple.

I have a tree of the original Delicious apple, which was a seedling found in an orchard near Sumner, Iowa, not far from where I live in NE Iowa. Preservationists have propagated this tree for minimal mutation. It is a slightly larger apple than commercial Red Delicious, ripens green with red blush, very firm, sweet with mild acidity, and moderate storage potential. Not my favorite apple of the 30 or so in my orchard, but one well worth growing.

Where you grow an apple also matters a great deal. Cox Orange Pippen may be great in Nova Scotia, which is not unlike it's Northern England home range, but it's a crappy apple in the mid-South, and can't be ripened reliably at all where I live.

Re: Appalachian Apple hunter who rescued 1k ‘lost’ varieties (2021)

#16

Post by masklinn »

Waterluvian wrote: post #12
masklinn wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the case of pretty much every grown food product. As a comment above it comes down to the incentives / optimisations of a grocery store.

In this case I think the American fig fell victim to disease more than optimization. But perhaps those are related too.

Disease is definitely a good point, some varieties have disappeared or severely contracted in range due to diseases and pests.

Re: Appalachian Apple hunter who rescued 1k ‘lost’ varieties (2021)

#18

Post by swayvil »

GnarfGnarf wrote: post #6

Ironically, you will never find the best-tasting apples in your local grocery store. The tastiest apples are often smaller, brown or dark skin, not the big red 'juicy' apples the uninformed consumer thinks are the best. Viz. the Red "Delicious", whose flavor was bred out in favor of color and appearance. It is now insipid and flavorless. In the Annapolis Valley of Nova Scotia, the humble-looking Cox Orange is sweet a…

We're seeing a similar "optimization" on the internet. In this case it's information that's being optimized.

We're getting information that's less useful and nourishing, more clickbaity, pandering and addictive.

We could say that the internet is turning Red Delicious.

Re: Appalachian Apple hunter who rescued 1k ‘lost’ varieties (2021)

#19

Post by Waterluvian »

masklinn wrote: post #16
Waterluvian wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case I think the American fig fell victim to disease more than optimization. But perhaps those are related too.

Disease is definitely a good point, some varieties have disappeared or severely contracted in range due to diseases and pests.

I’ll have to read up if the fig was a monoculture like bananas and therefore disease is kind of a consequence of what you’re pointing out.

Re: Appalachian Apple hunter who rescued 1k ‘lost’ varieties (2021)

#20

Post by marmetio »

walnutclosefarm wrote: post #13

Although I appreciate the work folks like Tom Brown do, the notion that he has actually rescued 1000 varieties is a bit of a stretch. An apple variety is only really rescued when it has found a home in commerce and some significant consumer base wants it. Otherwise it's just on life support in a museum, and maybe in a few home orchardists' little collections of trees - it's perpetuation still hanging by a thread. In…

What you're describing sounds more like "revive" or "sustain". Interesting and important next steps, for sure. Saving a variety from imminent destruction is still a "rescue", though.
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