Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#11

Post by jsnell » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 2:49 PM UTC

Gareth321 wrote: post #4

I'm fine with Epic getting financially reprimanded for dark patterns and anti-consumer behaviour. I am not on board with this: > That lawsuit also accused the company of illegally enabling real-time voice and text chat communications for children and teens in the game by default. So voice chat must now be turned off by default for all children across America? How on earth is this supposed to be policed? Should everyo…

You ask the users for their date of birth on signup, don't tell them that it will be used for age-gating features (to avoid incentivizing lying), and don't allow the date to be changed without some kind of age verification.

Or you use the social graph to infer age: somebody who mainly plays with 10 year olds is probably also about 10. If they claim to be 20, require an id anyway.

Non-gaming companies deal with this all the time. It's annoying, but shouldn't require blazing any new trails.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#12

Post by josefx » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 2:51 PM UTC

Gareth321 wrote: post #4

I'm fine with Epic getting financially reprimanded for dark patterns and anti-consumer behaviour. I am not on board with this: > That lawsuit also accused the company of illegally enabling real-time voice and text chat communications for children and teens in the game by default. So voice chat must now be turned off by default for all children across America? How on earth is this supposed to be policed? Should everyo…

> How on earth is this supposed to be policed? Should everyone playing a game be required to upload ID?

No need for a photo ID, Epic is also under fire for the amount of data it already collects from children. They are well aware who is playing. [1]

[1] https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/12/record-se...

> Voice chat is a staple of online games. Having a core feature included in a game by default is common sense.

It is so common sense that many games have minute long sections where it is outright impossible to mute trolls because the controls for voice chat aren't always accessible. Quite sure Fallout 76 didn't have any controls for it at all when it came out. The only choice in that case is to mute sound permanently, which is fucking stupid.

> Having a core feature included in a game by default is common sense.

I rarely use voice chat and the build in one even less. Call me old fashioned but I often just use a team speak server when playing with friends - once it works, it works for all games.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#13

Post by stevehawk » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 2:52 PM UTC

hourago wrote: post #10

Gareth321 wrote: post #4

I'm fine with Epic getting financially reprimanded for dark patterns and anti-consumer behaviour. I am not on board with this: > That lawsuit also accused the company of illegally enabling real-time voice and text chat communications for children and teens in the game by default. So voice chat must now be turned off by default for all children across America? How on earth is this supposed to be policed? Should everyo…

> So voice chat must now be turned off by default for all children across America? Should everyone playing a game be required to upload ID? And what is the gate between on and off by default? A single button press? When you go to the shop to buy alcohol you need to show an id. So, adults are free to buy alcohol but not children. Why is this any different? I understand that the problem comes from the amount of chat ab…

what was "the chat problem" ?

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#14

Post by _fat_santa » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 2:55 PM UTC

Gareth321 wrote: post #4

I'm fine with Epic getting financially reprimanded for dark patterns and anti-consumer behaviour. I am not on board with this: > That lawsuit also accused the company of illegally enabling real-time voice and text chat communications for children and teens in the game by default. So voice chat must now be turned off by default for all children across America? How on earth is this supposed to be policed? Should everyo…

Epic could add a dose of CYA here. Disable voice and text chat, and put the enable switch behind a "for 18+ only" or something like that and have them confirm their birthdate. Not that it would actually stop minors from bypassing this by clicking through the prompt and entering a fake age. But this would allow Epic to argue to the court that they are doing more than their competitors to verify that children are not using voice/text chat and that requiring them to go further would be unfair.

* Not a lawyer

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#15

Post by sillysaurusx » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 2:55 PM UTC

Gareth321 wrote: post #4

I'm fine with Epic getting financially reprimanded for dark patterns and anti-consumer behaviour. I am not on board with this: > That lawsuit also accused the company of illegally enabling real-time voice and text chat communications for children and teens in the game by default. So voice chat must now be turned off by default for all children across America? How on earth is this supposed to be policed? Should everyo…

Amazing how many people in this thread want to run to the government to solve the problem.

It’s kind of like that musk thread from yesterday where a bunch of people showed up to defend the policy of banning links. If someone makes a rule, there will always be someone else who thinks it’s a good idea.

As someone who grew up on roleplaying games when I was about 13, and had lots of exposure to the adult side of life, I’m with you. It’s totally lame that the government is trying to regulate this.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#16

Post by ApolloFortyNine » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 2:58 PM UTC

jsnell wrote: post #11

Gareth321 wrote: post #4

I'm fine with Epic getting financially reprimanded for dark patterns and anti-consumer behaviour. I am not on board with this: > That lawsuit also accused the company of illegally enabling real-time voice and text chat communications for children and teens in the game by default. So voice chat must now be turned off by default for all children across America? How on earth is this supposed to be policed? Should everyo…

You ask the users for their date of birth on signup, don't tell them that it will be used for age-gating features (to avoid incentivizing lying), and don't allow the date to be changed without some kind of age verification. Or you use the social graph to infer age: somebody who mainly plays with 10 year olds is probably also about 10. If they claim to be 20, require an id anyway. Non-gaming companies deal with this a…

10 year olds aren't as dumb as you're assuming here, they'd either make a new account, or have already been been putting an 18+ birth date for years.

All anyone cares about is covering their own ass, so it'd solve that issue, but it would have neglibile effect on anything real.

Source: Used the internet when I had to lie to every site about being over 13, so lied to every site about being over 13. Also vrchat requires being 13+, and boy, does 'requiring' it not accomplish anything at all.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#17

Post by boeingUH60 » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 2:58 PM UTC

josephd79 wrote: post #6

Quoted post unavailable.

$245 million is earmarked for customer refunds. The FTC has set up a website for players to request refunds...your claim is false.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#18

Post by Spivak » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 3:00 PM UTC

stevehawk wrote: post #13

hourago wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So voice chat must now be turned off by default for all children across America? Should everyone playing a game be required to upload ID? And what is the gate between on and off by default? A single button press? When you go to the shop to buy alcohol you need to show an id. So, adults are free to buy alcohol but not children. Why is this any different? I understand that the problem comes from the amount of chat ab…

what was "the chat problem" ?

The fact that online gaming chat is really really toxic. It's one of those things where christian mothers were right about video games but wrong about why. It turns out that artificial violence and guns and sex aren't some big corrupting influence but hanging around assholes for the majority of your leisure time and social activity absolutely is.

Online gaming where the only communication between players is jumping and canned voice lines is a wildly different experience.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#19

Post by emodendroket » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 3:01 PM UTC

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #16

jsnell wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ask the users for their date of birth on signup, don't tell them that it will be used for age-gating features (to avoid incentivizing lying), and don't allow the date to be changed without some kind of age verification. Or you use the social graph to infer age: somebody who mainly plays with 10 year olds is probably also about 10. If they claim to be 20, require an id anyway. Non-gaming companies deal with this a…

10 year olds aren't as dumb as you're assuming here, they'd either make a new account, or have already been been putting an 18+ birth date for years. All anyone cares about is covering their own ass, so it'd solve that issue, but it would have neglibile effect on anything real. Source: Used the internet when I had to lie to every site about being over 13, so lied to every site about being over 13. Also vrchat require…

We all know this can be bypassed but it is still the strategy pursued by a lot of services where some or all content is not appropriate for kids.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#20

Post by dbfx » Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 3:02 PM UTC

hourago wrote: post #10

Gareth321 wrote: post #4

I'm fine with Epic getting financially reprimanded for dark patterns and anti-consumer behaviour. I am not on board with this: > That lawsuit also accused the company of illegally enabling real-time voice and text chat communications for children and teens in the game by default. So voice chat must now be turned off by default for all children across America? How on earth is this supposed to be policed? Should everyo…

> So voice chat must now be turned off by default for all children across America? Should everyone playing a game be required to upload ID? And what is the gate between on and off by default? A single button press? When you go to the shop to buy alcohol you need to show an id. So, adults are free to buy alcohol but not children. Why is this any different? I understand that the problem comes from the amount of chat ab…

Somehow that wasn't an issue the last two decades, comparing it to alcohol is absurd, you dont go to the epic cornerstore and talk to the epic fortnite clerk to unlock voice chat.

This war on "toxicity" at the expense of basic communication is insane, the match ends and it all supposed harassment ends.