Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. battery storage capacity to increase significantly

eia.gov

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 50 posts

Re: U.S. battery storage capacity to increase significantly

#11

Post by kevinventullo »

crmd wrote: post #3

> Developers and power plant owners plan to significantly increase utility-scale battery storage capacity in the United States over the next three years, reaching 30.0 gigawatts (GW) by the end of 2025 Can someone explain how/why they are measuring storage capacity in watts?

This doc has more information: https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy19osti/74426.pdf

They’re talking about the power capacity, which is the maximum instantaneous rate of discharge as measured in kW, as opposed to the energy capacity which is measured in kWh. From what I can glean, it appears that for many applications, the power capacity is actually the more important number.

Re: U.S. battery storage capacity to increase significantly

#13

Post by jdsully »

bamboozled wrote: post #10
crmd wrote: post #3

> Developers and power plant owners plan to significantly increase utility-scale battery storage capacity in the United States over the next three years, reaching 30.0 gigawatts (GW) by the end of 2025 Can someone explain how/why they are measuring storage capacity in watts?

What should it be measured in?

watt/hours is the typical measurement. Raw wattage is insufficient without a time component.

Re: U.S. battery storage capacity to increase significantly

#14

Post by algo_trader »

zizee wrote: post #5
jweir wrote: post #2

The article doesn’t make this clear so I am assuming those numbers represent GWh of storage. To put this in context Bath County is a reservoir that has 24GWh of storage. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_S...

Context for your context: Bath County resevoir is descrbed as "largest battery in the world", and cost the equivilent of 4 billion dollars (in 2021 $), occupies 265 acres of land, and has a capacity of around 14,000,000 m3 of water. I'm curious to see how the costs compare. My understanding is pumped hydro storage gets cheaper at scale. If my math is correct, 24GWH of storage at $4 billion dollars^ is $167 per kilowa…

Pumped hydro can amortize over 50-100 years. In a true renewable grid, you will get over 50,000 cycles from the same dam (with some turbine replacements).

EDIT: numbers..

Re: U.S. battery storage capacity to increase significantly

#15

Post by blamazon »

zizee wrote: post #5
jweir wrote: post #2

The article doesn’t make this clear so I am assuming those numbers represent GWh of storage. To put this in context Bath County is a reservoir that has 24GWh of storage. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_S...

Context for your context: Bath County resevoir is descrbed as "largest battery in the world", and cost the equivilent of 4 billion dollars (in 2021 $), occupies 265 acres of land, and has a capacity of around 14,000,000 m3 of water. I'm curious to see how the costs compare. My understanding is pumped hydro storage gets cheaper at scale. If my math is correct, 24GWH of storage at $4 billion dollars^ is $167 per kilowa…

Even putting costs aside it seems like it could be unlikely that such a thing could be built at all today. Flooding huge swaths of ecosystems is no longer in vogue and dam removal is picking up in pace. When was the last major scale hydroelectric dam built in USA?

Edit: looks like the information is here somewhere in the national dam inventory: https://nid.usace.army.mil/#/dams/search/&viewType=map&resul...

But I am very tired and must sleep so I will not query.

Re: U.S. battery storage capacity to increase significantly

#17

Post by Gibbon1 »

zizee wrote: post #5
jweir wrote: post #2

The article doesn’t make this clear so I am assuming those numbers represent GWh of storage. To put this in context Bath County is a reservoir that has 24GWh of storage. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_S...

Context for your context: Bath County resevoir is descrbed as "largest battery in the world", and cost the equivilent of 4 billion dollars (in 2021 $), occupies 265 acres of land, and has a capacity of around 14,000,000 m3 of water. I'm curious to see how the costs compare. My understanding is pumped hydro storage gets cheaper at scale. If my math is correct, 24GWH of storage at $4 billion dollars^ is $167 per kilowa…

This paper says something around $350/kwh

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy21osti/79236.pdf

My feeling is a big advantage for batteries over pumped hydro is utilities can can locate them on existing land they own and have use permits for. So quietly spend money today and reap the benefit immediately without having to fight Nimby's and the Sierra Club.

And batteries are perfect for grid stabilization.

Re: U.S. battery storage capacity to increase significantly

#18

Post by bobthepanda »

blamazon wrote: post #15
zizee wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Context for your context: Bath County resevoir is descrbed as "largest battery in the world", and cost the equivilent of 4 billion dollars (in 2021 $), occupies 265 acres of land, and has a capacity of around 14,000,000 m3 of water. I'm curious to see how the costs compare. My understanding is pumped hydro storage gets cheaper at scale. If my math is correct, 24GWH of storage at $4 billion dollars^ is $167 per kilowa…

Even putting costs aside it seems like it could be unlikely that such a thing could be built at all today. Flooding huge swaths of ecosystems is no longer in vogue and dam removal is picking up in pace. When was the last major scale hydroelectric dam built in USA? Edit: looks like the information is here somewhere in the national dam inventory: https://nid.usace.army.mil/#/dams/search/&viewType=map&resul... But I am…

It's worth noting that pumped hydro, and the dams that are getting torn down for environmental these days, often look very different.

Usually the dams that are getting torn down, block the entire river, and thus fish from passing up or downstream of the dam. (Fish ladders exist but are not particularly effective.)

Pumped hydro may sit by the side of a river, but otherwise not obstruct the flow, and so that is not a major issue. (Example rendering: https://cdn.forumcomm.com/dims4/default/3ac369d/2147483647/s...)

Re: U.S. battery storage capacity to increase significantly

#19

Post by bee_rider »

digitalscribe wrote: post #6
jweir wrote: post #2

The article doesn’t make this clear so I am assuming those numbers represent GWh of storage. To put this in context Bath County is a reservoir that has 24GWh of storage. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_S...

The article is perfectly clear that all the values are watts (MW, GW). It's really silly to assume that the literal Energy Information Administration doesn't know the difference between the units of watts and watt-hours. Battery power capacity is watts. Battery energy capacity is watt-hours. This article is talking about power capacity.

I think you are right.

It is a little confusing because they use the term “battery storage capacity” a bunch of times. This looks like the… amount of storage capacity that the batteries have. But I think they actually mean it as, like, (battery storage) capacity. Like battery storage is just the name of the type of thing that provides [power] capacity.

Re: U.S. battery storage capacity to increase significantly

#20

Post by bee_rider »

crmd wrote: post #3

> Developers and power plant owners plan to significantly increase utility-scale battery storage capacity in the United States over the next three years, reaching 30.0 gigawatts (GW) by the end of 2025 Can someone explain how/why they are measuring storage capacity in watts?

I believe they mean:

(Battery storage) capacity

not

Battery (storage capacity).

That is, they are talking about power capacity (power is probably implied by default), which is provided by a type of device. The type of device is “battery storage.”

Post reply on HN