Apple’s anti-union tactics in Atlanta were illegal, US officials say • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple’s anti-union tactics in Atlanta were illegal, US officials say

#11

Post by fsociety » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 12:50 PM UTC

GoOnThenDoTell wrote: post #5

danuker wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a small business, maybe you're the only person doing . This is a more level playing field, but maybe a union is still useful here also.

In a small company, a real conversation is possible. In a large one the CEO is 100% doublespeak and the HR departments are cold

In my experience, I have seen more power imbalance at small/medium sized businesses. Whereas larger companies you tend to get lost in the bureaucracy and have the ability to switch teams/orgs and get out of bad situations. HR is usually more helpful with this too.

Re: Apple’s anti-union tactics in Atlanta were illegal, US officials say

#12

Post by refurb » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 12:50 PM UTC

danuker wrote: post #2

I believe unions are necessary in a world of humongous companies. That is because, in case of disagreements, an employee's prospect (losing 100% of their income) is a much worse negotiating position than a large company losing <1% of its workforce.

I think the challenge is the way unions are set up in the US. It's very different than Europe. I recall some HNer mentioning in the UK (I think) your work place can have multiple unions, you can join whichever one you want.

Re: Apple’s anti-union tactics in Atlanta were illegal, US officials say

#13

Post by halpmeh » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 12:52 PM UTC

> The agency can require remedies, such as posting of notices and reversals of policies or punishments, but it has no authority to impose punitive damages on companies.

So, in essence, there is zero incentive for Apple to change its behavior.

Re: Apple’s anti-union tactics in Atlanta were illegal, US officials say

#14

Post by wahnfrieden » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 12:54 PM UTC

winReInstall wrote: post #9

WeylandYutani wrote: post #6

It's heart warming to see the US rediscover labour unions Republicans wrote American socialists out of the history books but you can't keep the people down! You'll see increased lobbying from companies for increased migration to keep wages down.

Or, hear me out, they could ditch the lipservice to democracy entirely and push some ursurper on a throne. After all strong hierarchys controlled by a godking are closer to a company anyway. What has democracy ever done for us?

That's a paradox of the left - is the fight to keep people laboring, or to do away with it (through automation etc.)

Re: Apple’s anti-union tactics in Atlanta were illegal, US officials say

#15

Post by ajsnigrutin » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:01 PM UTC

danuker wrote: post #2

I believe unions are necessary in a world of humongous companies. That is because, in case of disagreements, an employee's prospect (losing 100% of their income) is a much worse negotiating position than a large company losing <1% of its workforce.

Many unions soon get corrupted and get in bed with the government (or atleast one side of it).

Here in slovenia, many worker unions were against the lowering the taxes on paychecks (higher net with same gross pay), because their political parties were against those, even if the workers themselves would benefit from those.

We also have some areas (eg. a government rail company), where you cannot even get a job, if you don't get approved by one of the two unions, which mostly means that you have to pay off someone in the union to get an approval (for a very cozy job).

Re: Apple’s anti-union tactics in Atlanta were illegal, US officials say

#16

Post by ajsnigrutin » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:04 PM UTC

WeylandYutani wrote: post #6

It's heart warming to see the US rediscover labour unions Republicans wrote American socialists out of the history books but you can't keep the people down! You'll see increased lobbying from companies for increased migration to keep wages down.

> You'll see increased lobbying from companies for increased migration to keep wages down.

I find it funny, that here (my country, slovenia), we have right(ish) parties against immigration but more liberal workforce rules, and on the other side, we have both leftish and pure "communist" parties (even with a red star in the logo), supposedly "fighting for the workers" and at the same time supporting more immigration.

Re: Apple’s anti-union tactics in Atlanta were illegal, US officials say

#17

Post by LeanderK » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:05 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #15

danuker wrote: post #2

I believe unions are necessary in a world of humongous companies. That is because, in case of disagreements, an employee's prospect (losing 100% of their income) is a much worse negotiating position than a large company losing <1% of its workforce.

Many unions soon get corrupted and get in bed with the government (or atleast one side of it). Here in slovenia, many worker unions were against the lowering the taxes on paychecks (higher net with same gross pay), because their political parties were against those, even if the workers themselves would benefit from those. We also have some areas (eg. a government rail company), where you cannot even get a job, if you…

This is not a law of nature, many unions just do their job. Many companies also treat their workers unfairly, so there's that. Workers need a way to organise.

What's worse, a company churning through employee after employee or a company captured by its union? Both can happen.

Re: Apple’s anti-union tactics in Atlanta were illegal, US officials say

#18

Post by noelherrick » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:05 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #15

danuker wrote: post #2

I believe unions are necessary in a world of humongous companies. That is because, in case of disagreements, an employee's prospect (losing 100% of their income) is a much worse negotiating position than a large company losing <1% of its workforce.

Many unions soon get corrupted and get in bed with the government (or atleast one side of it). Here in slovenia, many worker unions were against the lowering the taxes on paychecks (higher net with same gross pay), because their political parties were against those, even if the workers themselves would benefit from those. We also have some areas (eg. a government rail company), where you cannot even get a job, if you…

Unions that are run like a business eventually become a business. Unions need to be democratically-controlled, where regular workers can propose new contract terms and vote on them, as well as voting to call a strike.

Re: Apple’s anti-union tactics in Atlanta were illegal, US officials say

#19

Post by blackbear_ » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:06 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #15

danuker wrote: post #2

I believe unions are necessary in a world of humongous companies. That is because, in case of disagreements, an employee's prospect (losing 100% of their income) is a much worse negotiating position than a large company losing <1% of its workforce.

Many unions soon get corrupted and get in bed with the government (or atleast one side of it). Here in slovenia, many worker unions were against the lowering the taxes on paychecks (higher net with same gross pay), because their political parties were against those, even if the workers themselves would benefit from those. We also have some areas (eg. a government rail company), where you cannot even get a job, if you…

So just like lobbying, just from the other side?

Re: Apple’s anti-union tactics in Atlanta were illegal, US officials say

#20

Post by Macha » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #12

danuker wrote: post #2

I believe unions are necessary in a world of humongous companies. That is because, in case of disagreements, an employee's prospect (losing 100% of their income) is a much worse negotiating position than a large company losing <1% of its workforce.

I think the challenge is the way unions are set up in the US. It's very different than Europe. I recall some HNer mentioning in the UK (I think) your work place can have multiple unions, you can join whichever one you want.

Yeah, the whole concept of employers recognizing a union or employees being required to join a union which is raised in US union discussions are kind of weird.

Employers don't have to recognize a union in Europe, employees can still join and avail of legal support or group actions by those employees that did join.

Similarly, if the majority of your workplace is in a union, you don't have to join, just don't be surprised they don't bother defending your case if you end up a victim of unfair dismissal. Your employer may be unwilling to offer you employment terms different to what the union employees get because of the overhead for them, but if you had that little leverage you probably didn't have the imaginary invididual negotiating power the anti-union crowd imagines anyway.