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Online card payments still suck

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Re: Online card payments still suck

#11

Post by mcv »

I'm still disappointed every time I try to order something at a webshop and they don't support iDeal[0]. That's how online payment should work. Of course it's only a Dutch system, so it's not going to be supported by all international webshops (although Steam does), but if anyone has the scope to introduce a more secure form of online payment, surely it's Visa and MasterCard? Why don't they introduce an iDeal-like payment protocol that the whole world can use? Why do I still have to type those 16 numbers into a web form, when the banking app on my phone already knows what those numbers are? Why does anyone else need to know those numbers, and why are those numbers enough to authorise payment?

Everything is wrong with that system, and yet credit card companies don't seem to have sufficient incentive to fix it. And yet they have too much power outside Netherland for anyone to introduce a better alternative.

[0] Lego! Why do you not support iDeal? If Steam can do it, so can you.

Re: Online card payments still suck

#12

Post by prezjordan »

fragmede wrote: post #10

For a comparison, spend $5 or $10 that was gonna go to a lotto ticket or starbucks coffee and instead, buy an NFT. Just experience the UX of the web wallet system. It's weird, for sure, and unfortunately it's wrapped up in crypto (because of the emotional baggage people have with crypto), but the UX is interesting. Some lessons from there could be applied to online card payments and traditional banking to make them s…

Like what?

Re: Online card payments still suck

#13

Post by lotsofpulp »

mcv wrote: post #11

I'm still disappointed every time I try to order something at a webshop and they don't support iDeal[0]. That's how online payment should work. Of course it's only a Dutch system, so it's not going to be supported by all international webshops (although Steam does), but if anyone has the scope to introduce a more secure form of online payment, surely it's Visa and MasterCard? Why don't they introduce an iDeal-like pa…

Why should I care about credit card security? I have zero liability, and in 17 years of using them, I maybe had to ask the bank to issue a new credit card number once, and that would have been many years ago.

I am sure tons of doctors' offices, hotels, online businesses, daycares, etc have my hand written card number and CVC code or whatever laying around, but even if someone did use it fraudulently, I would just click the dispute button on the transaction and I assume I would not hear about it again.

Re: Online card payments still suck

#14

Post by wwilim »

In Poland, we have this wonderful system called BLIK. You provide nothing except a single-use 6-digit code, then you confirm the payment in your bank's mobile app. It works in online payments, physical stores and ATMs, it supports bank transfers using just a phone number, and recently it's been upgraded to support contactless payments as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blik

Re: Online card payments still suck

#15

Post by daniel-cussen »

mcv wrote: post #11

I'm still disappointed every time I try to order something at a webshop and they don't support iDeal[0]. That's how online payment should work. Of course it's only a Dutch system, so it's not going to be supported by all international webshops (although Steam does), but if anyone has the scope to introduce a more secure form of online payment, surely it's Visa and MasterCard? Why don't they introduce an iDeal-like pa…

No post body was provided.

Re: Online card payments still suck

#16

Post by fragmede »

prezjordan wrote: post #12
fragmede wrote: post #10

For a comparison, spend $5 or $10 that was gonna go to a lotto ticket or starbucks coffee and instead, buy an NFT. Just experience the UX of the web wallet system. It's weird, for sure, and unfortunately it's wrapped up in crypto (because of the emotional baggage people have with crypto), but the UX is interesting. Some lessons from there could be applied to online card payments and traditional banking to make them s…

Like what?

Accounts are the first thing that come to mind. right now, I have an account at my bank, and I need to meet certain requirements to have that account. Web3 wallet accounts have no such requirements, and creating a whole new account is just a click away.

To make a payment, because my web wallet is already linked, I just select which wallet I want to make a payment from. No need to type out my credit card number. Apple pay has some of the similar convenience, but that's vendor locked and a dead end.

Re: Online card payments still suck

#17

Post by Timja »

andy_ppp wrote: post #9
Timja wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is surprising that in 2022 this is still a popular misconception, even on a site like Hacker News. The amount of transactions the Bitcoin blockchain handles does not impact how many transactions can be done in Bitcoin via higher layers like the Lightning Network. I think the reason is that secure and trustless payment methods are a new thing that only came up a few years ago, and nothing like it existed before in…

You’ve moved trust from the banking system into code. That might be a good thing. I will look into how the lightening network works to inform myself. The climate change and extreme volatility amongst other issues are still going to prevent Bitcoin being adopted for settlements.

The idea that Bitcoin "needs" a lot of energy is also a misconception.

How much resources are used to produce something is determined by the value of that something. At the moment, about $6B worth of Bitcoin is mined per year. So roughly $6B of resources are used to mine Bitcoin. About half of it is hardware and half of it is energy.

At the same time, about $150B of gold is mined every year. So roughly $150B of resources are put into gold mining. Energy, dynamite, melting, transportation etc. The use of these resources is just as "bad" for the climate.

So if you wanted to do something for the climate, going against gold mining would be more than 20x more effective than going against Bitcoin mining.

Additionally, the production of Bitcoin is halving every 4 years. While the production of Gold will go on indefinitely.

Re: Online card payments still suck

#18

Post by dmitriid »

Timja wrote: post #8
andy_ppp wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t think Bitcoin could handle that many transactions, never mind the environmental damage it causes…

It is surprising that in 2022 this is still a popular misconception, even on a site like Hacker News. The amount of transactions the Bitcoin blockchain handles does not impact how many transactions can be done in Bitcoin via higher layers like the Lightning Network. I think the reason is that secure and trustless payment methods are a new thing that only came up a few years ago, and nothing like it existed before in…

> The amount of transactions the Bitcoin blockchain handles does not impact how many transactions can be done in Bitcoin via higher layers like the Lightning Network.

So there's no misconception. Bitcoin is as slow as ever, and handles very few transactions. It's other layers that provide more transactions. They store those transactions and then dump it in a batch to blockchain.

Congrats. You've invented batch transactions. Something that traditional banking systems has been doing since the middle ages.

> secure and trustless payment methods are a new thing that only came up a few years ago, and nothing like it existed before in the history of mankind.

Very doubtful. All that crypto space has invented so far has been known to mankind for generations (and in some cases for millenia). Moreover, for actual usefulness you need trust and enforcement, none of which are provided by crypto.

> With cryptographic solutions like Bitcoin+Lightning, no trust is needed anymore.

Except, you know, when I order something on Amazon, I expect the goods I ordered to actually arrive, so I trust Amazon, trust the seller, trust the postal service etc. to deliver this to me.

And if the goods don't arrive? I trust my bank to revert the transaction.

Re: Online card payments still suck

#19

Post by dmitriid »

Timja wrote: post #17
andy_ppp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve moved trust from the banking system into code. That might be a good thing. I will look into how the lightening network works to inform myself. The climate change and extreme volatility amongst other issues are still going to prevent Bitcoin being adopted for settlements.

The idea that Bitcoin "needs" a lot of energy is also a misconception. How much resources are used to produce something is determined by the value of that something. At the moment, about $6B worth of Bitcoin is mined per year. So roughly $6B of resources are used to mine Bitcoin. About half of it is hardware and half of it is energy. At the same time, about $150B of gold is mined every year. So roughly $150B of resou…

> How much resources are used to produce something is determined by the value of that something.

How much resources are used to produce something is defined literally by How much resources are used to produce something.

> about $150B of gold is mined every year. So roughly $150B of resources are put into gold mining.

Kid. Go and read something about a thing called "Value added".

> So if you wanted to do something for the climate, going against gold mining would be more than 20x more effective thatn going against Bitcoin mining.

No, it wouldn't.

Re: Online card payments still suck

#20

Post by psychlops »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #13
mcv wrote: post #11

I'm still disappointed every time I try to order something at a webshop and they don't support iDeal[0]. That's how online payment should work. Of course it's only a Dutch system, so it's not going to be supported by all international webshops (although Steam does), but if anyone has the scope to introduce a more secure form of online payment, surely it's Visa and MasterCard? Why don't they introduce an iDeal-like pa…

Why should I care about credit card security? I have zero liability, and in 17 years of using them, I maybe had to ask the bank to issue a new credit card number once, and that would have been many years ago. I am sure tons of doctors' offices, hotels, online businesses, daycares, etc have my hand written card number and CVC code or whatever laying around, but even if someone did use it fraudulently, I would just cli…

When losses are socialized, fraud is someone else's problem.
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