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The Real War 1939-1945 (1989)

theatlantic.com

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Re: The Real War 1939-1945 (1989)

#11

Post by yamtaddle »

annowiki wrote: post #4

I can strongly recommend Fussel's (the author of this essay) book "The Boys' Crusade", which provides a very eye opening account to WWII. It is most likely a longer version of this essay (I haven't read this essay). I can also recommend his book Poetic Meter & Poetic Form, but for different reasons. Other books in the same vein: - The Warriors: Reflections on Men in Battle by J Glenn Gray (Gray was a philosophy PhD a…

Not about war, but the same author's Class: A Guide Through the American Status System, published in 1983, is insightful and very entertaining.

Incidentally, if anyone knows of a worthy successor, I'd love to read it. His observations remain remarkably accurate in most cases (his completely-off take on "Class X" notwithstanding) but there must be more to say on the topic since then.

Re: The Real War 1939-1945 (1989)

#12

Post by williamcotton »

rossdavidh wrote: post #8

"They knew that in its representation to the laity, what was happening to them was systematically sanitized and Norman Rockwellized, not to mention Disneyfied." The author seems to have little understanding of how much this was true of World War 1, or probably every large scale war ever. The home audiences for news reports in World War 1 (in pretty much every country) were not allowed to know how FUBB'd things were,…

The author does mention this:

“IN THE POPULAR AND GENTEEL ICONOGRAPHY OF war during the bourgeois age, all the way from eigh­teenth and nineteenth-century history paintings to twentieth-century photographs, the bodies of the dead are intact, if inert, sometimes bloody and sprawled in awkward positions, but, except for the ab­sence of life, plausible and acceptable simulacra of the people they once were.”

Re: The Real War 1939-1945 (1989)

#13

Post by hutzlibu »

rossdavidh wrote: post #8

"They knew that in its representation to the laity, what was happening to them was systematically sanitized and Norman Rockwellized, not to mention Disneyfied." The author seems to have little understanding of how much this was true of World War 1, or probably every large scale war ever. The home audiences for news reports in World War 1 (in pretty much every country) were not allowed to know how FUBB'd things were,…

Well, in WW1 in britain they actually did an authentic frontline documentation for the home front to watch in the new cinemas.

It turned out, this was kind of bad for the morale of the civilians, who were expecting heroics and glory and were devastated by the gruel pictures of reality of war and so they never showed it again in this shape. (I try to find the video again)

Re: The Real War 1939-1945 (1989)

#14

Post by yibberish »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #5

I didn't fight in WW2 obviously, but I did fight in a war. For me, the reticence to describe every detail to people who weren't there boils down to this: I don't want my wife, my children, or my neighbors to be burdened with thinking of something so horrible. I want them to be happy and safe, that's why I went. No need to bring it to their doorstep if I don't have to. I suspect many during and after WW2 felt this way…

talking about it does not quite bring it to their doorstep; but it surely takes you back there; it's understandable to not want to go back.

your choice to shoulder this burden for all, is well your choice. but be advised that this choice may have unintended consequences in a longer term. consequences of your choice to witholding bad things "for them".

I don't belive you're doing this (bearing the horrible things) only to shield your relatives from your past. it is important you recognize that it's something you do for yourself, you are the main person who doesn't want to remember whatever horrible events you had to experience; don't pin this choice on them.

Re: The Real War 1939-1945 (1989)

#15

Post by pram »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #5

I didn't fight in WW2 obviously, but I did fight in a war. For me, the reticence to describe every detail to people who weren't there boils down to this: I don't want my wife, my children, or my neighbors to be burdened with thinking of something so horrible. I want them to be happy and safe, that's why I went. No need to bring it to their doorstep if I don't have to. I suspect many during and after WW2 felt this way…

Alternate perspective: I was in Iraq and Afghanistan, I don't talk about it because theres not much to say. I was either standing or sitting some place on guard duty, wired up on an insane amount of caffeine and nicotine, trying not to go insane for the 12 hour shifts. The only thing that punctuated the boredom was the daily mortar attack alarms lol

Re: The Real War 1939-1945 (1989)

#16

Post by rospaya »

siavosh wrote: post #6
annowiki wrote: post #4

I can strongly recommend Fussel's (the author of this essay) book "The Boys' Crusade", which provides a very eye opening account to WWII. It is most likely a longer version of this essay (I haven't read this essay). I can also recommend his book Poetic Meter & Poetic Form, but for different reasons. Other books in the same vein: - The Warriors: Reflections on Men in Battle by J Glenn Gray (Gray was a philosophy PhD a…

I read the Chris Hedges book when it came out and it's left a lasting impression on me. I think it got rid of any academic notions of war I may have had. One part that I'll always remember was him saying the war criminals were the pundits on TV leading up to and during the Bulkan war, they held much guilt in leading the masses to the terrible outcomes. The other counter intuitive insight it gives is how wars have thi…

The Hague is full of poets, playwrites, psychiatrists and lawyers and the media was heavily used to incite hatred. Not in the way that directed violence in Rwanda for example, but it was propaganda.

Re: The Real War 1939-1945 (1989)

#17

Post by bwanab »

yamtaddle wrote: post #11
annowiki wrote: post #4

I can strongly recommend Fussel's (the author of this essay) book "The Boys' Crusade", which provides a very eye opening account to WWII. It is most likely a longer version of this essay (I haven't read this essay). I can also recommend his book Poetic Meter & Poetic Form, but for different reasons. Other books in the same vein: - The Warriors: Reflections on Men in Battle by J Glenn Gray (Gray was a philosophy PhD a…

Not about war, but the same author's Class: A Guide Through the American Status System , published in 1983, is insightful and very entertaining. Incidentally, if anyone knows of a worthy successor, I'd love to read it. His observations remain remarkably accurate in most cases (his completely-off take on "Class X" notwithstanding) but there must be more to say on the topic since then.

"Class" seems to have held up very well. I remember back when it was published trying to shoehorn myself into his "Class X". I had to squint really hard.

Re: The Real War 1939-1945 (1989)

#18

Post by branko_d »

siavosh wrote: post #6
annowiki wrote: post #4

I can strongly recommend Fussel's (the author of this essay) book "The Boys' Crusade", which provides a very eye opening account to WWII. It is most likely a longer version of this essay (I haven't read this essay). I can also recommend his book Poetic Meter & Poetic Form, but for different reasons. Other books in the same vein: - The Warriors: Reflections on Men in Battle by J Glenn Gray (Gray was a philosophy PhD a…

I read the Chris Hedges book when it came out and it's left a lasting impression on me. I think it got rid of any academic notions of war I may have had. One part that I'll always remember was him saying the war criminals were the pundits on TV leading up to and during the Bulkan war, they held much guilt in leading the masses to the terrible outcomes. The other counter intuitive insight it gives is how wars have thi…

> the war criminals were the pundits on TV

Mila Štula comes to mind.

I still remember watching the hysteria on Radio-Television Belgrade in disbelief that people would actually believe it. But they did. And the rest is history, as they say. Ugly, murderous, and utterly unnecessary history.

I see some signs of this in the contemporary US media landscape, and I worry the consequences might be similar.

Re: The Real War 1939-1945 (1989)

#19

Post by yamtaddle »

bwanab wrote: post #17
yamtaddle wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not about war, but the same author's Class: A Guide Through the American Status System , published in 1983, is insightful and very entertaining. Incidentally, if anyone knows of a worthy successor, I'd love to read it. His observations remain remarkably accurate in most cases (his completely-off take on "Class X" notwithstanding) but there must be more to say on the topic since then.

"Class" seems to have held up very well. I remember back when it was published trying to shoehorn myself into his "Class X". I had to squint really hard.

I think the core problem was his not recognizing Class X as just the usual bohemian avant-garde, and thinking that it represented some shift in the class hierarchy rather than a constant part of it. His hope for some bright future for this "classless" class was simply misplaced, because he didn't see what it actually was. Which makes the end of that otherwise fun book kind of a downer.

Re: The Real War 1939-1945 (1989)

#20

Post by iwillbenice »

denton-scratch wrote: post #7

Old soldiers rarely want to talk about what they've experienced. My father was horrified by my proposal to interview him on video about his WWII career. And when they ask us And they're certainly going to ask us The reason why we didn't win the Croix de Guerre Oh we'll never tell them No we'll never tell them. There was a front, but damned if we knew where. [WWI soldier's song, based on a popular song of the time]

My grandfather was a WWII B-29 pilot. For a very long time he didn't talk in much detail about the horrors. It was only in his later years before he passed did he talk openly about some of the real nasty aspects. One time I asked him what the most unpleasant thing he experienced was during his time in the military. His answer was the stench of burning humans. When they started low level firebombing, his initial spot was the center-rear wave. So when he flew in to drop his stuff... the smell was horrendous.

I suspect he shared that with us younger folks to illustrate that war is not glamorous, even if you win. Yes they won, but it was a disgustingly ugly affair for all parties involved.

I'm glad he shared that, because I have a very healthy aversion to unnecessary conflict, in part due to a few stories shared by him.

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