Cobra Maneuver • Hacker News Board

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#11

Post by thot_experiment » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:07 PM UTC

william-at-rain wrote: post #6

“Go up, blow up” is the common phrase in this kind of aerial combat. You highlight your heat signature against… space. Even without heaters, I can be extremely aggressive on a guns attempt because an overshoot in the vertical isn’t nearly as risky - few aircraft can capitalize on an overshoot uphill. Almost all defenders in that situation (if they live through the attack) will be forced downhill anyway.

Also a maneuver that takes so much energy and trades it for heat/turbulence better also be getting a kill out of that trade immediately, and that kill had better the be the last guy left trying to kill you. There are vanishingly few situations where a cobra won't leave you reeeally wishing you still had the energy you just spent.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#12

Post by hutzlibu » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:07 PM UTC

hatsunearu wrote: post #10

Unfortunately the circumstances where this is useful is very limited. You'd have to be in very close range and in a very bad disadvantage, which honestly doesn't last long (you'd blow up very fast) and when you start decelerating you become a very easy target to hit. And after your opponent overshoots--you just lost a ton of energy--and energy is everything in aerial combat. Energy is the currency you spend to maneuv…

"And after your opponent overshoots--you just lost a ton of energy--and energy is everything in aerial combat. "

The idea is, to be able to make the kill, after you are now behind. Then it does not matter, if you are too slow.

But wikipedia indeed says, this manoever has never been confirmed in real air combat, so yes, its usefullness is quite limited.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#13

Post by Keyframe » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:09 PM UTC

It was in 80's kids vocabulary when discussing fighter jets and which one is better - 'yeah, but can it do Cobra?!'

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#14

Post by js2 » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:09 PM UTC

> Super stall plagued the early years of Saab 35 service, causing several deaths, which led the Swedish air staff to implement extra training on how to counteract and recover from them. The result was the cobra maneuver.

Necessity, the mother of invention.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#15

Post by breck » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:13 PM UTC

funstuff007 wrote: post #2

Didn't Maverick pull this off in Top Gun?

I wasn't there, but IIRC it was a 5th gen fighter against Maverick and Rooster in an F-14 that pulled this off. Unfortunately for the 5th gen pilot it later came down to the pilot, not the plane, and he became splash 2.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#16

Post by loloquwowndueo » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:22 PM UTC

funstuff007 wrote: post #2

Didn't Maverick pull this off in Top Gun?

So. He does the “deceleration by using the F-14 variable wing sweep” twice - once in Top Gun and once in Top Gun: Maverick. He also does an actual “high angle of attack” cobra on an F-18 in TG: M.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#17

Post by acidburnNSA » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:23 PM UTC

funstuff007 wrote: post #2

Didn't Maverick pull this off in Top Gun?

In Top Gun 1 he did something like it twice in an F-14 against the MiGs: "I'm gonna hit the brakes, he'll fly right by". Once in the first dogfight and then again in the last one.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#18

Post by twawaaay » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:29 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #12

hatsunearu wrote: post #10

Unfortunately the circumstances where this is useful is very limited. You'd have to be in very close range and in a very bad disadvantage, which honestly doesn't last long (you'd blow up very fast) and when you start decelerating you become a very easy target to hit. And after your opponent overshoots--you just lost a ton of energy--and energy is everything in aerial combat. Energy is the currency you spend to maneuv…

"And after your opponent overshoots--you just lost a ton of energy--and energy is everything in aerial combat. " The idea is, to be able to make the kill, after you are now behind. Then it does not matter, if you are too slow. But wikipedia indeed says, this manoever has never been confirmed in real air combat, so yes, its usefullness is quite limited.

The problem is, you are now not only behind but also much slower than your opponent. And as parent poster mentioned, energy is everything.

I would also point out both aircraft are in straight and level flight, basically in formation, with the pilot composed and prepared. This is not how a dogfight looks like.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#19

Post by zoomablemind » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:35 PM UTC

This maneuver requires high thrust while 'slowing down'. Not sure if that's a reasonable energy trade off. Would you go into a dogfight with external tanks still on?

Sure the pursuitor jet won't (rather should't) be in such close proximity position, unless intending to shoot the enemy with his handgun. Thus with reasonable separation, this at best may force a break of the lock, but at the same time slowing down and with extra fuel loss.

It is fun to watch at shows, though these days these wows are awarded to the vectored thrust tricks.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#20

Post by bazillion » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:36 PM UTC

funstuff007 wrote: post #2

Didn't Maverick pull this off in Top Gun?

In Top Gun 2, he uses it twice. Once, during the training dogfight where Rooster has a chance to shoot him down (he says, "Too late, you had your chance" and then pulls off the maneuver, targeting Rooster instead afterwards). After the training dogfight, he is told by Cyclone, "...and I don't ever want to see that Cobra shit again. That could have gotten you both killed".

The second time was towards the end when they're fending off the SAM attacks -- Rooster is in trouble with no flares to launch, and Maverick simultaneously pulls off a Cobra Maneuver while launching his own set of flairs, resulting in his own aircraft being hit.