Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#11

Post by phzbOx » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 3:43 AM UTC

This is a risky subject to talk about. I guess it's mostly because everyone has a different background and view things differently. I do know however that different women will handle things very differently.

For instance, I'd open a door to a women and she'd put her best smile and thank me while another one might be offended that I'd treat her specially. (Happens to me from time to time in the metro.) Who's right? I guess both.. it depends of their background.

I always feel there's a blur when working with women between professionalism and amiability. I.e. If I talk with a colleague (man) about his weekend, it's fine. If I have the same conversation with a girl, it'd seem I'm trying to date with her. I don't know, maybe it's just me over-thinking things. What do you think?

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#12

Post by aangjie » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 3:45 AM UTC

bluekeybox wrote: post #7

To summarize the article: for some reason, the society is more willing to tolerate "pushiness" in males than in females. Why is that the case? Any ideas? (Other than "because it's always been like that..."). Not to bring down everything to sexuality, but a sexually pushy woman would be typically labeled a "slut." Which is why a woman will almost never ask a man out.

Perhaps, it's time we as a society reconsidered the negative connotations we attach to the word "slut"

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#13

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 4:00 AM UTC

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Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#14

Post by jdp23 » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 4:02 AM UTC

bluekeybox wrote: post #7

To summarize the article: for some reason, the society is more willing to tolerate "pushiness" in males than in females. Why is that the case? Any ideas? (Other than "because it's always been like that..."). Not to bring down everything to sexuality, but a sexually pushy woman would be typically labeled a "slut." Which is why a woman will almost never ask a man out.

> Why is that the case? Any ideas?

The situation gives men an enormous advantage. And the vast majority of the 90%+ of Fortune 500 CEOs and tech startups and VCs who are guys don't seem to have any interest in changing it. Why do you think that's the case?

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#15

Post by jseliger » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 4:02 AM UTC

jonmc12 wrote: post #9

Was discussing the origin article with my wife last night. One theory we had was that men actually negotiate and put a higher value on money in order to attract women . Perhaps men ask for more money at jobs because women value men with a high salary more than they value making money themselves.. :)

Probably Roy Baumeister's book Is There Anything Good About Men?, which discusses possible gender differences as trade-offs in evolutionary terms.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#16

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 4:06 AM UTC

arkitaip wrote: post #8

rachelbythebay wrote: post #4

I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or just more money. It did not help. In fact, I think it may have gotten me branded as bitchy for attempting to break out of the mold instead of "knowing my place". A lot of that was probably a function of where I was working, but this goes on at other places as wel…

Were you able to practice your delivery on some colleagues in the business? Because the way we communicate negotiation strikes me as absolutely crucial in not coming of as aggressive. Not that I don't believe you when you say that there's a double standard wrt the kind of negotiation behavior is accepted from men and women.

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Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#17

Post by MatthewPhillips » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 4:09 AM UTC

Has anyone examined the possibility that wage is less of a motivating factor for the women in question; they don't negotiate because they are getting something out of it more important (to them) than the money.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#18

Post by natrius » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 4:10 AM UTC

fleitz wrote: post #6

rachelbythebay wrote: post #4

I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or just more money. It did not help. In fact, I think it may have gotten me branded as bitchy for attempting to break out of the mold instead of "knowing my place". A lot of that was probably a function of where I was working, but this goes on at other places as wel…

Even as a man negotiating can have preprocussions, I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next to sales increases), been accused of blackmail (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when they offer you a vacation and you ask for a raise), accused of lowering employee moral (thanks for turning down my request for a raise, I decided to become a team player and…

"I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next to sales increases)"

Giant red flag. If someone's wiling to hide information that helps you do your job in order to minimize your credit, something is horribly wrong.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#19

Post by jdp23 » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 4:14 AM UTC

rachelbythebay wrote: post #4

I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or just more money. It did not help. In fact, I think it may have gotten me branded as bitchy for attempting to break out of the mold instead of "knowing my place". A lot of that was probably a function of where I was working, but this goes on at other places as wel…

Totally agreed about asking ten women about their experiences -- with the caveat that you need to do it in a way that they'll be comfortable enough to be honest with you. It can be really eye-opening.

Unfortunately as you say, in many situations becoming a better negotiator doesn't help. In the long term, the key is to find companies, managers, and colleagues who 'are' aware of these issues and work to do the right thing. Alas, that's easier said than done.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#20

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 02, 2011, 4:14 AM UTC

natrius wrote: post #18

fleitz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even as a man negotiating can have preprocussions, I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next to sales increases), been accused of blackmail (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when they offer you a vacation and you ask for a raise), accused of lowering employee moral (thanks for turning down my request for a raise, I decided to become a team player and…

"I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next to sales increases)" Giant red flag. If someone's wiling to hide information that helps you do your job in order to minimize your credit, something is horribly wrong.

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