Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer • Hacker News Board

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#11

Post by codeslush » Fri, Nov 25, 2011, 5:21 PM UTC

This seems a little short-sighted to me. It's noted that the company doesn't make the offer until they've had the candidate go through on-site interviews. It's not like they are making an offer on initial meeting. If both parties are interested, this should be acceptable.

Look at it from another perspective. The hiring manager has an open position to fill. They want to fill it with someone who wants to work with them. They can't leave a job offer on the table for a long period of time, just to have the candidate say no. Having that offer outstanding prevents them from making an offer to other potentially qualified (and more eager) candidates. An interested candidate should have no problem with a decision at this point in the interview process.

If the job offer is pulled because it is expired, and the candidate is really interested in the job, they should be able to get another offer if the position hasn't been filled by the time they got off the fence.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#12

Post by dsolomon » Fri, Nov 25, 2011, 5:21 PM UTC

Now that Joel has covered how credible and ethical recruiters, and the companies they support, should behave - when can we expect to see them?

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#13

Post by jarek » Fri, Nov 25, 2011, 5:32 PM UTC

alex_c wrote: post #8

There's no mention of the flip side of this. I only have one position, and I interview multiple candidates, several of which are good. If I make you an offer, I can't afford to sit around waiting for weeks for you to make up your mind: if you turn it down, chances are my other candidates are already gone, and now I have to start the whole process again from scratch. Edit: fair enough, I missed that Joel was talking a…

Fair point, but this article is aimed at students looking for full-time jobs or co-ops, most of which become available at roughly the same time, many months from January.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#14

Post by cperciva » Fri, Nov 25, 2011, 5:35 PM UTC

alex_c wrote: post #8

There's no mention of the flip side of this. I only have one position, and I interview multiple candidates, several of which are good. If I make you an offer, I can't afford to sit around waiting for weeks for you to make up your mind: if you turn it down, chances are my other candidates are already gone, and now I have to start the whole process again from scratch. Edit: fair enough, I missed that Joel was talking a…

Most such companies have far more than one position they're trying to fill. Small startups generally aren't recruiting at college career fairs.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#15

Post by Swizec » Fri, Nov 25, 2011, 5:35 PM UTC

rcfox wrote: post #9

Swizec wrote: post #6

Is it odd that the most surprising thing about this article, for me, was that people start looking for summer jobs in November? Also, why aren't people accepting every offer they get, then at the start of summer[1] send an email about changing their minds to everyone who isn't the best offer? Or even play offers against each other? [1] or rather a reasonable amount of time sooner

Ethics? Not wanting to burn bridges?

I don't know about ethics, wouldn't everyone understand if a person's situation changes in 6 months? That's a lot of time.

Say I accept an offer in December, then get a better one in May. Wouldn't the December offer be understanding of the fact that hey, I'm gonna have to change my mind here.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#16

Post by jarek » Fri, Nov 25, 2011, 5:37 PM UTC

codeonfire wrote: post #3

thurn wrote: post #2

There ought to be a database of companies that give offers with very short expirations. Not necessarily condemning the practice, but it would be good to know. Yelp, for example, routinely gives offers with a 5-day acceptance window.

This is every company. I've never heard of any company giving more than 3-5 days. If you work for a big corp, you know how unbelievably insecure management is, any delay at all would make them look very bad politically. When a hiring manager's whole career is based on appearances, which it usually is, a week is an eternity.

A large Seattle company gives at least two weeks to graduating students. The new graduate market is fairly specific, though, with lots of fairly interchangeable people coming on market at the same time.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#17

Post by brown9-2 » Fri, Nov 25, 2011, 5:37 PM UTC

thurn wrote: post #2

There ought to be a database of companies that give offers with very short expirations. Not necessarily condemning the practice, but it would be good to know. Yelp, for example, routinely gives offers with a 5-day acceptance window.

There ought to be a database of tech companies with shady employment practices, period.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#18

Post by delinka » Fri, Nov 25, 2011, 5:38 PM UTC

alex_c wrote: post #8

There's no mention of the flip side of this. I only have one position, and I interview multiple candidates, several of which are good. If I make you an offer, I can't afford to sit around waiting for weeks for you to make up your mind: if you turn it down, chances are my other candidates are already gone, and now I have to start the whole process again from scratch. Edit: fair enough, I missed that Joel was talking a…

In the context of student interns, you're in the wrong place to fill that position. Either that one position is important enough for hiring a Real Professional, or you'll survive not having an intern for a few more months.

Having a single position that's critical to your company but attempting to fill it with an intern is disingenuous and perhaps even unethical (you're underpaying the intern based on the position's value to the company; you're not giving your shareholders actual value by hiring someone inexperienced; etc.)

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#19

Post by brown9-2 » Fri, Nov 25, 2011, 5:38 PM UTC

simulate wrote: post #7

I'm surprised this is coming from Spolsky. Spolsky's companies must be getting big. Small companies can often only hire one person at a time and therefore need short acceptance windows. Small companies (< 50 people) often have only one specific position open. It is unethical to make more than one offer if you hiring for a single position. Therefore small companies often need short acceptance windows so they can make…

It's not a new message from Joel. This was originally posted on his site in 2008: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/11/26.html

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#20

Post by benatkin » Fri, Nov 25, 2011, 5:38 PM UTC

simulate wrote: post #7

I'm surprised this is coming from Spolsky. Spolsky's companies must be getting big. Small companies can often only hire one person at a time and therefore need short acceptance windows. Small companies (< 50 people) often have only one specific position open. It is unethical to make more than one offer if you hiring for a single position. Therefore small companies often need short acceptance windows so they can make…

Spolsky's companies are getting big, but this article was written a long time ago.

He worked for Microsoft, so he has some experience with a big company, and he has definitely spent a lot of time thinking and reading about big companies.

I think he wants to get the right number of employees but he'd rather have people genuinely interested in his companies than play the game. I think he also notices that some of the most promising candidates stop looking due to accepting one of these exploding offers, so he isn't able to conduct a thorough search.