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The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

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Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#11

Unsustainable. If you're a wealthy individual living in an expensive residence surrounded by other wealthy individuals living in expensive residences, you still need garbagemen to collect your garbage. You still need food. Whether you order from local restaurants staffed by employees, or buy your groceries at the supermarket, staffed by employees, janitorial personnel, security guards, and managers, you're still rely…

It's not really unsustainable - Switzerland and other wealthy microstates show us the long-term outcome, which is quite desirable. In fact, the "ordinary people" will eventually benefit the most, since their wages will grow to match the prevalent cost of living. Transition can of course be difficult.

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Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#12
post #7

I hope Portugal won't tackle it like my country, with a cap on rent and other market distortions. I think that only makes it worse. Fun fact: I - as a single - live in a way too big, luxurious and expensive apartment because of this. I rented it, when I was still working for the man and was making a killing. Now I live a much more modest 4-hour-workweek life. It would be better for me to move to an apartment half the…

There are other ways to be stuck, I'm in subsidized housing which I would like to give to the less fortunate but buying is impossible and leaving would mean half the space and four times the rent making me have less remaining per month than the less fortunate in my current appartment.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#13

This same story seems to be playing out anywhere that attracts it and allows it.

There are good arguments that foreigners should only be allowed to own real estate only in specific places and that citizenship should be by blood only for small countries - let's say under 100000 sq km and 50 million people. Too easy for them to be overtaken by global elite otherwise.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#15

Unsustainable. If you're a wealthy individual living in an expensive residence surrounded by other wealthy individuals living in expensive residences, you still need garbagemen to collect your garbage. You still need food. Whether you order from local restaurants staffed by employees, or buy your groceries at the supermarket, staffed by employees, janitorial personnel, security guards, and managers, you're still rely…

If a place has only millionaires, prices for many basic things will be very high compared to other places, like for plumbers: there will be less plumbers and those willing to go there will be able to raise prices, a lot. Same for groceries, cleanup, ...

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#17
There’s much truth here, but it isn’t the entire picture.

Lisboa and Oporto are hideously overpriced, and it is indeed hard to see how a normal Portuguese earner can afford to live in either. Even Vila Nova de Gaia, which was the “cheap” side of Oporto, is now parlously expensive.

This effect has bled along the coast, and many coastal villages now ask €200k for an unmodernised one bedroom house.

But… the interior of the country is still facing depopulation, and property prices and rents here (between Bragança and Miranda) are still low. A five bedroom house in a town in decent condition can be had for €100k. There’s a beautiful 16th c. T8 palazzo needing modernisation in our nearest town for €80k.

People don’t earn much here, but they don’t spend much, either - a lot of food is home grown or hunted and bartered, heating is from firewood, and most folks drive perhaps 50km in a week, as they live within walking distance of where they work. Almost every house that’s had modernisation done uses solar for hot water and to supplement power. They deployed a gas network four years ago, and shuttered it last, as nobody is using it. Property taxes on the above properties are about €100 a year.

They’re desperate for people to move out here - lots of vacancies, not enough people to fill them. They’ve rolled out gigabit fibre to the villages, which they are literally giving away. We’re the only estrangeiros in the county, bar returning Brasileiros.

So. The reality is that which is being played out all over the world. Cities are becoming unaffordable for mere mortals - and, in my view, that’s ok, as cities are past their useful life as industrial hubs and have principally become destinations and speculative investments.

I’m not advocating some sort of “return to the land”, but rather that people are going to have to consider that perhaps they don’t all have to live in the top 5 cities in their country.

Sure, I can’t get takeout here, but I can breathe fresh air, sit at a quiet cafe and chat with my friends in the village without enduring traffic whilst drinking my €0.60 coffee, and support local businesses run by local people, rather than vast corporate chains.

Since we’ve moved here, particularly during the pandemic, we have seen quite a few young Portuguese couples move here from Oporto - some with family ties, some without - they’re starting businesses, families, renovating old abandoned homes. It’s genuinely exciting to see the beginning of something.

The pendulum swings, the market speaks, the world turns. Sure, we may be facing down collapse - of the current way of doing things. Not of all things.

Edit: just to demonstrate the veracity of my statements re property prices here: https://www.idealista.pt/comprar-casas/braganca/vimioso/vimi...

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#18

Unsustainable. If you're a wealthy individual living in an expensive residence surrounded by other wealthy individuals living in expensive residences, you still need garbagemen to collect your garbage. You still need food. Whether you order from local restaurants staffed by employees, or buy your groceries at the supermarket, staffed by employees, janitorial personnel, security guards, and managers, you're still rely…

It's not really unsustainable - Switzerland and other wealthy microstates show us the long-term outcome, which is quite desirable. In fact, the "ordinary people" will eventually benefit the most, since their wages will grow to match the prevalent cost of living. Transition can of course be difficult.

How big is Switzerland population?

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#19
post #7

I hope Portugal won't tackle it like my country, with a cap on rent and other market distortions. I think that only makes it worse. Fun fact: I - as a single - live in a way too big, luxurious and expensive apartment because of this. I rented it, when I was still working for the man and was making a killing. Now I live a much more modest 4-hour-workweek life. It would be better for me to move to an apartment half the…

Similar in Vancouver. If you've been renting for 7+ years, you won't move even if the place doesn't fit you anymore. You would be paying close to double.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#20
What countries aren't struggling with this sort of dynamic?

I almost think that the US is doing pretty well with this in the sense that you can still move somewhere that's cheap relative to your salary, but that only holds true if you're able to do it with remote work. So, maybe it's not true at all.

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