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Bailout U. - A college degree certainly doesn't mean what it used to.

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Re: Bailout U. - A college degree certainly doesn't mean what it used to.

#11

Post by omlette »

ebiester wrote: post #5
ComputerGuru wrote: post #3

The thing I don't get is, when we were growing up (I'm from this generation of college grads), we knew that a humanities degree was utterly useless. Didn't everyone? We were always told that a humanities degree was just fluff, liberal arts degrees were real degrees but you could only work as a teacher with them, and science/professional (such as engineering, medicine, law, etc.) were the only degrees that would conve…

Few start in French literature. Many start in Computer Science, or Engineering, or Physics, or Pre-med. They get weeded out because of a combination of poor teachers, poor pre-college math and science preparation, and a lack of study skills or scientific ability. Well, you have a year in, you're stuck in the sunk cost fallacy (Well, I've already spent a year in college, I'm going to have all this debt anyway, so I sh…

they get weeded out because they didn't enjoy the subject enough and were doing it for reasons like their parents wanted them to or so they could get a high paying job. if you eat, breathe and shit math then you are not going to drop out of it.

Re: Bailout U. - A college degree certainly doesn't mean what it used to.

#12

Post by flacon »

I have a social science degree from UC Berkeley and am a self-taught programmer / Entrepreneur. I currently work as a Senior Software Developer. The best programmers I have worked with over 7 years have not been comp sci / engineering majors, while most of the mediocre programmers I have worked with have a degree in CS or MIS - totally anecdotal I know, but thats been my experience.

To a certain extent, what you study in college and what you eventually pursue as a career are generally not the same. Anyone with more than a few years in the field will understand that. Experience trumps a degree after 2-3 out in the field and you can set your own course.

Feel free to disagree, just let me know how many years of work experience you have.

Re: Bailout U. - A college degree certainly doesn't mean what it used to.

#13

Post by kmfrk »

flacon wrote: post #12

I have a social science degree from UC Berkeley and am a self-taught programmer / Entrepreneur. I currently work as a Senior Software Developer. The best programmers I have worked with over 7 years have not been comp sci / engineering majors, while most of the mediocre programmers I have worked with have a degree in CS or MIS - totally anecdotal I know, but thats been my experience. To a certain extent, what you stud…

How did you get into the business?

While people with degrees/diplomas may not be good at programming, they at least have something tangible to show potential employers, while people without one need to be more ... creative.

It reminds me on the focus on grades - ALONE - in my country. An absolutely atrocious metric, but a metric the institutions can understand, at least.

Re: Bailout U. - A college degree certainly doesn't mean what it used to.

#14

Post by flacon »

kmfrk wrote: post #13
flacon wrote: post #12

I have a social science degree from UC Berkeley and am a self-taught programmer / Entrepreneur. I currently work as a Senior Software Developer. The best programmers I have worked with over 7 years have not been comp sci / engineering majors, while most of the mediocre programmers I have worked with have a degree in CS or MIS - totally anecdotal I know, but thats been my experience. To a certain extent, what you stud…

How did you get into the business? While people with degrees/diplomas may not be good at programming, they at least have something tangible to show potential employers, while people without one need to be more ... creative. It reminds me on the focus on grades - ALONE - in my country. An absolutely atrocious metric, but a metric the institutions can understand, at least.

After college I started doing some web development on the side, which really took off. I spent like 100's of late nights hacking and learning. I think there is really no other way to get good or learn things but through hard work. You can either be forced to do it (like via a degree or taking classes etc) or just force yourself on your own. I started doing simple thing than got excited to do more and more complex features, apps, systems etc. Now I do lots of System Admin and DBA, product management etc. I know many people that have followed the same path: studied X but now do Y.

"they at least have something tangible to show potential employers"

Maybe, depends on the organization. I worked for a startup where we passed over a lot of CS resume's b/c they had no tangible experience, no interesting side project, nothing they were hacking on, nothing that stood out, including people with Ivy league CS degrees.

Re: Bailout U. - A college degree certainly doesn't mean what it used to.

#15

Post by philwelch »

ebiester wrote: post #5
ComputerGuru wrote: post #3

The thing I don't get is, when we were growing up (I'm from this generation of college grads), we knew that a humanities degree was utterly useless. Didn't everyone? We were always told that a humanities degree was just fluff, liberal arts degrees were real degrees but you could only work as a teacher with them, and science/professional (such as engineering, medicine, law, etc.) were the only degrees that would conve…

Few start in French literature. Many start in Computer Science, or Engineering, or Physics, or Pre-med. They get weeded out because of a combination of poor teachers, poor pre-college math and science preparation, and a lack of study skills or scientific ability. Well, you have a year in, you're stuck in the sunk cost fallacy (Well, I've already spent a year in college, I'm going to have all this debt anyway, so I sh…

It's funny to blame poor teaching for people getting weeded out of STEM subjects, when a lot of STEM subjects are designed to weed people out.

I think it's more the case that, in our headlong rush to get as many people through college as possible, the standards plummeted. 50 years ago, a liberal arts degree probably had much the same academic rigor as many science degrees have today, and so it at least demonstrated one possessed intelligence, education, and a work ethic. Back then, you majored in French literature because you were interested in French literature.

Actually, a lot of that might even still be true today--a liberal arts degree from Harvard might be of value, but only because not everyone gets into Harvard and completes a degree.

Re: Bailout U. - A college degree certainly doesn't mean what it used to.

#16

Post by kmfrk »

flacon wrote: post #14
kmfrk wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you get into the business? While people with degrees/diplomas may not be good at programming, they at least have something tangible to show potential employers, while people without one need to be more ... creative. It reminds me on the focus on grades - ALONE - in my country. An absolutely atrocious metric, but a metric the institutions can understand, at least.

After college I started doing some web development on the side, which really took off. I spent like 100's of late nights hacking and learning. I think there is really no other way to get good or learn things but through hard work. You can either be forced to do it (like via a degree or taking classes etc) or just force yourself on your own. I started doing simple thing than got excited to do more and more complex fea…

I share you sentiment completely, but the discrepancy between how things should be and how they are can be gigantuan at times.

Did you get a job by responding to a listing or something more out of the box?

Re: Bailout U. - A college degree certainly doesn't mean what it used to.

#17

Post by teyc »

I'm 42. I've lived long enough to see mining engineers unemployed (they're hot now); aeronautics engineers working as tourist guides; a scientist who helped somebody win a Nobel prize working odd jobs; doctors doing menial work http://www.adtoa.org/index.pl?page=468 , and post-dotcom engineers who moved back in with their parents.

Do not for any moment think that a hard technical field is necessarily superior. What we study and how we fare is actually an adaptive feature. Just as natural selection isn't about survival of the fittest, rather survival of the best adapted; whether some one is employed or not is a not function of whether they studied "hard" skills or not, but rather whether their skills are adapted to present economic conditions.

Unfortunately, the economy is fickle. Enjoy your time in the sun, and I hope it lasts long.

Re: Bailout U. - A college degree certainly doesn't mean what it used to.

#18

Post by tikhonj »

tsunamifury wrote: post #8

I know there is a pretty strong superiority complex here pertaining to cs and engineering degrees, and for good reason, you are in demand. That however does not equate to the assumption that all people should get cs or engineering degrees. For example, my girlfriend and I both having writing degrees and make a six figure income each. We both know how to script, direct media production and do a variety of things relat…

I think the usual complaint isn't that everybody should have gotten a cs/engineering degree but that they shouldn't complain and demonize the system if they got a trivial degree.

Re: Bailout U. - A college degree certainly doesn't mean what it used to.

#19

Post by tikhonj »

flacon wrote: post #12

I have a social science degree from UC Berkeley and am a self-taught programmer / Entrepreneur. I currently work as a Senior Software Developer. The best programmers I have worked with over 7 years have not been comp sci / engineering majors, while most of the mediocre programmers I have worked with have a degree in CS or MIS - totally anecdotal I know, but thats been my experience. To a certain extent, what you stud…

I highly suspect your observations are a result of cognitive bias. You are much more likely to remember the degree of a programmer if it's something incongruous, so it's the philosophy degrees that stand out in a sea of CS degrees.

Also, a programmer's having a CS degree is much less likely to come up. You note his degree--which is similar to so many others--and don't think of it again, unless, perhaps his performance is poor. Poor performance doesn't match what you expect--or, more likely, what you think others expect--of a CS major, so you remember that it was a CS major that wasn't particularly good.

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