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€9 Ticket

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Re: €9 Ticket

#11

Post by junon »

ShallowCopy wrote: post #6
loevborg wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's very frustrating that (as it looks like) the ticket will run out this month. It was one of the best ideas the German government has had in years. This month I've used the ticket a ton, both in rural areas and cities. It felt like an incredible improvement in the quality of life. It also reduced car traffic by IIRC 2%. While that sounds like a small number, given that the goal is for Europe to go carbon neu…

But why tax everyone to subsidise the trains for the ones that use them? Even more so for tourists that barely pay taxes here and would have paid the full price anyway. With the normal ticket prices people pay for that they use, which sounds more fair to me.

I lived in SF before I lived in Germany. What you're describing is how BART works and it's trash.

Re: €9 Ticket

#12

Post by netsharc »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #7
ShallowCopy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why tax everyone to subsidise the trains for the ones that use them? Even more so for tourists that barely pay taxes here and would have paid the full price anyway. With the normal ticket prices people pay for that they use, which sounds more fair to me.

Because we want to encourage people to take the train and discourage them using cars.

Yeah, the tax could be targeted, e.g. tax on gasoline, or on cars, with ICE cars needing to pay more (even though they're better, public transport is still the better way to prevent the climate catastrophe), but hey, the idea of any tax is probably horrifying tp the libertarians on HN...

Re: €9 Ticket

#13

Post by 7373737373 »

ValentineC wrote: post #4

I was in Germany earlier this month, and made good use of the ticket going around quite a bit of Germany. The best part about it as a frugal traveller is not having to think about ticket prices (a local metro ride could cost something like 2 EUR) and buying them. It's quite liberating, and I'd pay (the rumoured) 69 EUR if they brought it back again next year.

Yes, and another aspect of this was it being valid all across Germany - instead of scouring the maps and price lists of various regional providers (for whose fractured approach to public transport I have utter disdain and could insert many expletives here), you could just pay, travel, and forget

Re: €9 Ticket

#14

Post by iggldiggl »

ThePadawan wrote: post #10
t6jvcereio wrote: post #9

.... I'm not an economist, but isn't this counter productive? By making it cheaper people will consume it more. No?

If that thing is good, that's good. Less sarcastically - this initiative was launched to reduce the fuel usage of German citizens because fuel prices are exploding and reserves are running low. Trains are operated electrically and can use alternate energy sources. So yes - people were using the train more: Either as an alternative to their personal vehicle (for commuting, visiting friends, going shopping), or as an a…

If really this had been launched to "reduce the fuel usage of German citizens", they wouldn't have also reduced fuel taxes at the same time.

This simply came about because the government had to be seen doing something about the rising energy prices – the Liberals proposed temporarily lowering the gas taxes to score popularity points, but because they're in a coalition government with the Green party, the latter wanted something with a more ecological veneer, so after some horse-trading public transport users got thrown a bone, too.

Re: €9 Ticket

#15

Post by iggldiggl »

loevborg wrote: post #5
junon wrote: post #2

The 9 Euro ticket has been fantastic. Sadly, it is over at the end of this month :/ Wish it stuck around longer.

To me it's very frustrating that (as it looks like) the ticket will run out this month. It was one of the best ideas the German government has had in years. This month I've used the ticket a ton, both in rural areas and cities. It felt like an incredible improvement in the quality of life. It also reduced car traffic by IIRC 2%. While that sounds like a small number, given that the goal is for Europe to go carbon neu…

The problem is that not a single one of those 10 billions buys neither a single additional vehicle-kilometre being operated [1], not a single metre of additional infrastructure, nor deals in any way with the impending maintenance backlog on the national railway network.

[1] Actually right now often the difficulty is even actually operating the currently scheduled timetable due to a lack of staff.

Re: €9 Ticket

#16

Post by solarkraft »

iggldiggl wrote: post #15
loevborg wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's very frustrating that (as it looks like) the ticket will run out this month. It was one of the best ideas the German government has had in years. This month I've used the ticket a ton, both in rural areas and cities. It felt like an incredible improvement in the quality of life. It also reduced car traffic by IIRC 2%. While that sounds like a small number, given that the goal is for Europe to go carbon neu…

The problem is that not a single one of those 10 billions buys neither a single additional vehicle-kilometre being operated [1], not a single metre of additional infrastructure, nor deals in any way with the impending maintenance backlog on the national railway network. [1] Actually right now often the difficulty is even actually operating the currently scheduled timetable due to a lack of staff.

What they buy is a larger user base, especially of people with enough capital that they're able to make the often financially sensible decision to buy a car instead, leading to a much higher motivation to finally fix the things you mention.

Re: €9 Ticket

#17

Post by solarkraft »

ShallowCopy wrote: post #6
loevborg wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's very frustrating that (as it looks like) the ticket will run out this month. It was one of the best ideas the German government has had in years. This month I've used the ticket a ton, both in rural areas and cities. It felt like an incredible improvement in the quality of life. It also reduced car traffic by IIRC 2%. While that sounds like a small number, given that the goal is for Europe to go carbon neu…

But why tax everyone to subsidise the trains for the ones that use them? Even more so for tourists that barely pay taxes here and would have paid the full price anyway. With the normal ticket prices people pay for that they use, which sounds more fair to me.

Our roads are toll-free too and we want to encourage the use of trains.

Re: €9 Ticket

#18

Post by solarkraft »

t6jvcereio wrote: post #9

.... I'm not an economist, but isn't this counter productive? By making it cheaper people will consume it more. No?

> By making it cheaper people will consume it more

Yep!

> isn't this counter productive?

Nope!

Increasing the use of the already existing infrastructure (rails & train stations) is not that much more additionally expensive.

While encouraging the use of trains you're also discouraging the use of cars - effectively paying people to not use their car seems pretty sensible in a time in which we really want people to stop using cars.

For additional leisure trips that people wouldn't have made otherwise, it still stimulates economic activity and at the very least general happiness and contentment, which is important anyway, but especially so in times that are likely to become harder in the next few months.

Re: €9 Ticket

#19

Post by solarkraft »

iggldiggl wrote: post #14
ThePadawan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that thing is good, that's good. Less sarcastically - this initiative was launched to reduce the fuel usage of German citizens because fuel prices are exploding and reserves are running low. Trains are operated electrically and can use alternate energy sources. So yes - people were using the train more: Either as an alternative to their personal vehicle (for commuting, visiting friends, going shopping), or as an a…

If really this had been launched to "reduce the fuel usage of German citizens", they wouldn't have also reduced fuel taxes at the same time. This simply came about because the government had to be seen doing something about the rising energy prices – the Liberals proposed temporarily lowering the gas taxes to score popularity points, but because they're in a coalition government with the Green party, the latter wante…

GP got the reasoning a bit wrong, it's to lower the impact of the increased energy prices. As far as I'm aware the 9€-Ticket has had a decent lowering impact on measured inflation due to reduced transport costs.

Re: €9 Ticket

#20

Post by ThePadawan »

iggldiggl wrote: post #14
ThePadawan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that thing is good, that's good. Less sarcastically - this initiative was launched to reduce the fuel usage of German citizens because fuel prices are exploding and reserves are running low. Trains are operated electrically and can use alternate energy sources. So yes - people were using the train more: Either as an alternative to their personal vehicle (for commuting, visiting friends, going shopping), or as an a…

If really this had been launched to "reduce the fuel usage of German citizens", they wouldn't have also reduced fuel taxes at the same time. This simply came about because the government had to be seen doing something about the rising energy prices – the Liberals proposed temporarily lowering the gas taxes to score popularity points, but because they're in a coalition government with the Green party, the latter wante…

> If really this had been launched to "reduce the fuel usage of German citizens", they wouldn't have also reduced fuel taxes at the same time.

Not owning a car, it is my rough understanding that lowering the fuel tax just led to fuel distributors and gas stations keeping their prices the same to increase their profits.

So reducing the fuel tax was practically speaking a measure to subsidize oil companies, not humans, without realistically aiming to impact fuel usage.

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