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Seeing like a state, progress and poverty, and owning land

loukidelis.com

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Re: Seeing like a state, progress and poverty, and owning land

#11
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some undefined variables. Did the people doing the improving own the land? Well, now they're no longer poor. Yay. Sell and get out of there before the Californians move in and turn it into a sewer. If they voluntarily improved somebody else's land under no contractual agreement with the owner, why do they think they're entitled to a share of the new value? If they voluntarily improved "public" land, good lu…

> If they voluntarily improved somebody else's land under no contractual agreement with the owner, why do they think they're entitled to a share of the new value? > If they voluntarily improved "public" land, good luck extracting gratitude from the state after the fact. The bureaucrats are more likely to issue fines and send in bulldozers. I wonder if this is a fringe example as I imagine few people are radically imp…

I agree, I doubt it's much of a real thing, but the hypothetical got me thinking.

Re: Seeing like a state, progress and poverty, and owning land

#12
>I bought my house 55 years ago, and in the time that I’ve lived in it the city has grown up around me so that the plot of land that my house sits on is now extremely valuable.

Examples like these ignore that the reason the land around them is vaulable is by virtue of the people living there making it a better and more prosperous place. They earn the windfall for the time they spend there without making it worse. Someone who has lived in a house for 55 years didn't watch its value appreciate, their lives made the area around them appreciate. The reason neighbourhoods get gentrified is because the residents made them attracitve. The reason neighbourhoods decay is because people don't invest themselves in them long enough, or because they don't invest in them at all because they want to get out.

The ostensible justice of taking this investment from people via high taxes is dispicably cynical. Only a bandit looks at what you have and tells you it's theirs. It makes common ground impossible.

Re: Seeing like a state, progress and poverty, and owning land

#13

I'd like to better understand the concept of "unimproved land value" vs. "improvements". For example, let's say there's a neighborhood of people who are quite poor but charitable toward one another. So they build nice gardens accessible for free, little galleries, drinking fountains and so on. As a result, other people want to move in, land value in the community increases, and eventually the original inhabitants can…

in the UBI version, the tax is purely redistributive. each of the 10 inhabitants pays some $ figure proportional to their monopoly use of the land, and then receive the sum divided by 10. if all inhabitants own roughly the same sqft, it has no real effect.

in the case where Georgist tax is used to fund public works, things look identical before outsiders move in. the inhabitants are taxed into some fund, and now receive payment from that fund for their charitable improvements. it’s a closed economy. however, once a non-charitable neighbor moves in, they too are taxed but do not receive anything from this communal fund (since they aren’t working to make communal improvements). now, the 10 original inhabitants continue to make those original public improvements they enjoyed making, and as a bonus, they all receive a little extra for their work.

depending on who you are, maybe you don’t like the idea of having “freeloaders” as neighbors, even if you’re materially better off for it. there are a few knobs you can tweak to shape the kind of neighbors you attract more explicitly (e.g. the $/hourly rate the community fund pays for labor, the rates associated with property taxes, etc). the key is that this tax is levied as part of a closed labor economy. you’re effectively monetizing the labor each neighbor was already investing into public spaces. the average neighbor sees no difference in their $ balance as before: no threat of not being able to afford to stay. UBI does better at protecting the elderly, community improvement fund better at protecting the hard-working/able-bodied.

Re: Seeing like a state, progress and poverty, and owning land

#14
This is an interesting post, But requires changes "to the system" that is a little too big for my small brain to think about. If I might diverge from a little as a thought I'm still figuring out:

It ends on the thought of "for a common good" which makes me think of that utilitarian ideal, one that I don't think is going to be approached by democratic processes of popular vote and the like*

So what then? if not "democracy" to get us looking after the common good, is the alternative autocracy, totalitarianism? being realised through monarch-ism or dictatorship?

There's a good video [1] about how fascism was able to be so prevalent in the 20th centry when politics became less individualised and more collective will, "Common good for US" etc in both communism and nazism. Fascism itself relies on having an "us vs them" approach - which, while old kingdoms also had, were perhaps less pronounced and pointed? (I don't know, I'm just imagining a kingdom wanting to keep to itself rather than invading europe)

So it leads me to think: is the only way we can get towards this "for the common good" is to fall in step behind a mono-government that we must be selective to ensure that no harm is done to those outside of "our" domain? or is this all just friviolovily and it's up to us to organise and look after those around us (smaller feudal states or such)

Not sure, interesting thoughts, happy for any corrections if I was wrong about something.

* There's an interesting approach to popular vote that I've found however, that might be of interest, being that "everyone gets to vote as many parties that they want" https://youtu.be/yhO6jfHPFQU

1: https://youtu.be/1T_98uT1IZs

Re: Seeing like a state, progress and poverty, and owning land

#15

> I bought my house 55 years ago, and in the time that I’ve lived in it the city has grown up around me so that the plot of land that my house sits on is now extremely valuable. Examples like these ignore that the reason the land around them is vaulable is by virtue of the people living there making it a better and more prosperous place. They earn the windfall for the time they spend there without making it worse. So…

I mean, that might be true, but it might be the steady stream of new people who show up and stay for 5 years before leaving that make the city more valuable, and the people who hunker down just kind of gain the windfall. I'm sure you develop some deep, meaningful personal networks after living in the same place for half a century, but at the same time, outsiders probably aren't using that as a factor when deciding whether some place is a desirable place to live.

Re: Seeing like a state, progress and poverty, and owning land

#16

> I bought my house 55 years ago, and in the time that I’ve lived in it the city has grown up around me so that the plot of land that my house sits on is now extremely valuable. Examples like these ignore that the reason the land around them is vaulable is by virtue of the people living there making it a better and more prosperous place. They earn the windfall for the time they spend there without making it worse. So…

The community creates the value but the land owners capture the value. This is just exclusively to the degree these are the same groups of people, invested to the same degree. While the scenario you describe could conceivably play out, so too could the opposite scenario, where the value is created by people who did not get in on the ground floor of the land ownership scheme but is captured by the people who did. In that case it would be the land owners who are the bandits.

In a world of increasing inequality and specialization, the latter scenario is going to be increasingly common. For many people, it is already here: the absentee slumlord who charges a king's ransom and can't be bothered to keep the toilets flushing is a staple of high-value locations. This person clearly isn't creating the value that drives people to put up with these circumstances, but by virtue of owning the correct deed they get to capture the value even as they do their best to unravel it.

Re: Seeing like a state, progress and poverty, and owning land

#17

> I bought my house 55 years ago, and in the time that I’ve lived in it the city has grown up around me so that the plot of land that my house sits on is now extremely valuable. Examples like these ignore that the reason the land around them is vaulable is by virtue of the people living there making it a better and more prosperous place. They earn the windfall for the time they spend there without making it worse. So…

> The reason neighbourhoods get gentrified is because the residents made them attracitve. The reason neighbourhoods decay is because people don't invest themselves in them long enough, or because they don't invest in them at all because they want to get out.

Gentrification isn’t an art project. It’s people with more wealth or income-opportunity coming in and buying up cheap stuff at the prices they can afford. That a prettier coffee shop with gourmet pastries opens up, or that the restaurants have cutesy little parklets, is a second order effect.

In most cases, what makes the neighborhood “more attractive” and starts this in motion is either a growing industry within commute distance or that some other neighborhood got too pricey.

It has very little to do with the prior or new people in the neighborhood, except that the new people have access to more money than the old people and so price them out. Care for community or other forms of moral character have absolutely zero to do with it.

Re: Seeing like a state, progress and poverty, and owning land

#18
post #8

I'd like to better understand the concept of "unimproved land value" vs. "improvements". For example, let's say there's a neighborhood of people who are quite poor but charitable toward one another. So they build nice gardens accessible for free, little galleries, drinking fountains and so on. As a result, other people want to move in, land value in the community increases, and eventually the original inhabitants can…

By 'lose the land', really they'd be forced to sell or go bankrupt/accrue tax debt. Which is pretty terrible if the folks are little old ladies settling down to avoid the cruel harsh world, and now need to find somewhere else to live when they are least capable of doing so (being on a fixed income and all). The 'can't put old widows out of their homes' scenario is why California's Prop 13 came to be, btw. Even withou…

> The 'can't put old widows out of their homes' scenario is why California's Prop 13 came to be

There’s a better way to handle this, though, than the Prop 13 approach of limiting taxes. You just allow a certain amount of property taxes to optionally go unpaid and accrue as a lien against the property that must be settled when the property changes hands. Old widows never get forced out of their houses, but they don’t get to leave them to their kids without paying the tax.

Re: Seeing like a state, progress and poverty, and owning land

#19

> I bought my house 55 years ago, and in the time that I’ve lived in it the city has grown up around me so that the plot of land that my house sits on is now extremely valuable. Examples like these ignore that the reason the land around them is vaulable is by virtue of the people living there making it a better and more prosperous place. They earn the windfall for the time they spend there without making it worse. So…

>Examples like these ignore that the reason the land around them is vaulable is by virtue of the people living there making it a better and more prosperous place.

You are ignoring that the new arrivals increase the land value of existing residents. You are ignoring that the government uses income taxes etc to invest into the community, not private land owners, effectively punishing the government and renters for good investments as their income taxes improve the value of the land which then results in them paying more rent. Doing the right thing ends up making a lot of people poorer and land owners richer. So now your government is heavily encouraged to do corrupt projects that benefit the politicians rather than the public. Lots of public transportation projects could pay for themselves through an LVT but without an LVT they drain the renter's and governments pockets.

Honestly, the idea that when a town grows from 10k to 100k that it's only the 10k original residents that create the value and those other 90k are just useless deadweights living off the hard work of older residents is ridiculous when land ownership is just about fencing off something that was already there. When you think about it, the real deadweight is someone demanding to get paid for something they didn't create. It is the community as a whole that makes land valuable, not the owners of the land.

Re: Seeing like a state, progress and poverty, and owning land

#20

> I bought my house 55 years ago, and in the time that I’ve lived in it the city has grown up around me so that the plot of land that my house sits on is now extremely valuable. Examples like these ignore that the reason the land around them is vaulable is by virtue of the people living there making it a better and more prosperous place. They earn the windfall for the time they spend there without making it worse. So…

> The reason neighbourhoods get gentrified is because the residents made them attracitve. The reason neighbourhoods decay is because people don't invest themselves in them long enough, or because they don't invest in them at all because they want to get out. Gentrification isn’t an art project. It’s people with more wealth or income-opportunity coming in and buying up cheap stuff at the prices they can afford. That a…

This criticism of gentrification ignores the sellers who are glad to take the money for what they invested, and the reason the industry moved to that area in the first place was to get access to the people who were there. The landowners are the community, provided that they are present and managing their investment. This is a fundamental cognitive divide as well, as the positions aren't reconcilable because it's a chicken/egg problem. One is as good a metaphor for either as the other.

I may even have a proof that people mostly migrate to where they can find stability, and away from where there is uncertainty and volatility. Long term residents are the stability.

When there is an imbalance between the sides, it needs correction, and advocating for the people who actually build these desirable streets and neighbourhoods that are so attractive for others to come to seems like the braver cause these days.

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