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The Bay Area's lost streetcars

sfstreetcars.co

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Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#11

Post by melony »

systemvoltage wrote: post #8
hadlock wrote: post #2

What a lot of pro-transit (full disclosure, I am full transit) folks fail to mention, is that most streetcars were initially built, in particular, those out towards the sunset, big chunks of LA, were actually built by property developers, as an incentive, "look! see! don't need a car! just like urban living, but look at all this extra space you get! just take the street car into town". Street cars were run at break e…

To make this happen, first, East Bay needs to make streets safer. It is ridiculous how crime ridden Oakland and Berkeley are to the point where it is probably wise to avoid public transportation all together. We need a national guard deployed here 24/7, that's how I feel walking around in downtown Oakland. With NYCSPA vs Bruen ruling, I am planning to obtain a handgun and a CCW license from Alameda sheriff with a sha…

Is it really that bad? Seems to be mostly just homeless people and drug users.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#12

Post by sammalloy »

melony wrote: post #11
systemvoltage wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make this happen, first, East Bay needs to make streets safer. It is ridiculous how crime ridden Oakland and Berkeley are to the point where it is probably wise to avoid public transportation all together. We need a national guard deployed here 24/7, that's how I feel walking around in downtown Oakland. With NYCSPA vs Bruen ruling, I am planning to obtain a handgun and a CCW license from Alameda sheriff with a sha…

Is it really that bad? Seems to be mostly just homeless people and drug users.

It’s a good question. Whenever this discussion comes up, my take on it is that people are concerned about being random victims. In other words, some aspects of this have to do with being in the wrong place at the wrong time and not feeling safe in your environment. I think it would be helpful to change the frame of the discussion and ask what we can do to make people more safe and comfortable. The BBC recently had a discussion about this in the UK, and they came up with all sorts of specific and targeted solutions. We rarely see that happen over here on this side of the pond.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#13

Post by systemvoltage »

melony wrote: post #11
systemvoltage wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make this happen, first, East Bay needs to make streets safer. It is ridiculous how crime ridden Oakland and Berkeley are to the point where it is probably wise to avoid public transportation all together. We need a national guard deployed here 24/7, that's how I feel walking around in downtown Oakland. With NYCSPA vs Bruen ruling, I am planning to obtain a handgun and a CCW license from Alameda sheriff with a sha…

Is it really that bad? Seems to be mostly just homeless people and drug users.

Oakland overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH-v3aB8BwQ

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#14

Post by washbrain »

Many cities had "streetcar suburbs", developments on the fringes of town serviced by street cars that took people to work.

Sadly, they were largely decommissioned and replaced with buses or nothing.

We badly need to get more trains moving through American cities. I'd prefer grade separated, but honestly even if we had streetcars running in from all the suburbs that'd be pretty great.

It's also worth mentioning the General Motors Streetcar Conspiracy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_con...

There's pretty good incentive to see streetcars removed if you are a car company...

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#15

Post by spacehunt »

defrost wrote: post #5
melony wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason they are failing is because they are slow ass and never modernized. Now they are primarily tourist traps. SF is a bad example of a city with street cars, there are many countries with much better implementations of street cars. You need to give street cars priority and make sure they don't get overly slowed down by city traffic. If you want people to take streetcars, overhaul the entire infrastructure. You…

eg: Melbourne, Australia > Trams are a major form of public transport in Melbourne, the capital city of the state of Victoria, Australia. > As of May 2017, the Melbourne tramway network consists of 250 kilometres of double track, 493 trams, 24 routes, and 1,763 tram stops. > The system is the largest operational urban tram network in the world. As featured in the engineering nerd cult classic film Malcolm (1986) [1]…

Melbourne is not a great example of a modern fast system though. The trams are far too slow in the inner suburbs, with the exception of parts of 96/119.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#17

Post by femiagbabiaka »

melony wrote: post #11
systemvoltage wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make this happen, first, East Bay needs to make streets safer. It is ridiculous how crime ridden Oakland and Berkeley are to the point where it is probably wise to avoid public transportation all together. We need a national guard deployed here 24/7, that's how I feel walking around in downtown Oakland. With NYCSPA vs Bruen ruling, I am planning to obtain a handgun and a CCW license from Alameda sheriff with a sha…

Is it really that bad? Seems to be mostly just homeless people and drug users.

It’s not that bad at all, I go downtown every week and used to live on Telegraph. I think downtown has actually improved a bit with better development. But people’s anxieties are still somewhat valid.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#19

Post by deepdriver »

defrost wrote: post #5
melony wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason they are failing is because they are slow ass and never modernized. Now they are primarily tourist traps. SF is a bad example of a city with street cars, there are many countries with much better implementations of street cars. You need to give street cars priority and make sure they don't get overly slowed down by city traffic. If you want people to take streetcars, overhaul the entire infrastructure. You…

eg: Melbourne, Australia > Trams are a major form of public transport in Melbourne, the capital city of the state of Victoria, Australia. > As of May 2017, the Melbourne tramway network consists of 250 kilometres of double track, 493 trams, 24 routes, and 1,763 tram stops. > The system is the largest operational urban tram network in the world. As featured in the engineering nerd cult classic film Malcolm (1986) [1]…

You don't even need to be a wealthy country. Tram service is excellent in Zagreb, capital of Croatia, where they've had electrics trams for more than a century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Zagreb

To someone from a place with modern, well-maintained light rail, I imagine Bay Area streetcars seem as quaint and outdated as old Ford cars in Cuba look to Americans.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#20

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

washbrain wrote: post #14

Many cities had "streetcar suburbs", developments on the fringes of town serviced by street cars that took people to work. Sadly, they were largely decommissioned and replaced with buses or nothing. We badly need to get more trains moving through American cities. I'd prefer grade separated, but honestly even if we had streetcars running in from all the suburbs that'd be pretty great. It's also worth mentioning the Ge…

My town is famous for being a city that feels like a bunch of neighborhoods. Nearly all of those iconic neighborhoods are along the historic street car routes, that were dismantled in the 30s and 40s.

I won't claim the street cars were perfect, but there is a lot of merit to the idea that they were replaced by an inferior solution due to the prevailing winds of the moment. What I find more interesting is the street car lines had such a dramatic impact that now 100 years later they're still defining the shape of the city.

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