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I will now send this to beginner programmers

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Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#11
post #2

>Chat room helpers often will try and lead you to discover the right answer yourself. It may feel frustrating, but play their game and you will learn. This is the discussion level of the pyramid. I fucking hate this so much. You spend hours trawling through Google search results and finally decide the answer isn't out there. Stack overflow is caustic so you don't want to ask there. Hop on IRC and ask "how do I do X?"…

The question you ask is quite broad so the answer you'll receive will be broad as well.

Right, as if my "How do I do X?" wasn't merely illustrative.

Standard HN pedantry pls go.

Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#14
post #2

>Chat room helpers often will try and lead you to discover the right answer yourself. It may feel frustrating, but play their game and you will learn. This is the discussion level of the pyramid. I fucking hate this so much. You spend hours trawling through Google search results and finally decide the answer isn't out there. Stack overflow is caustic so you don't want to ask there. Hop on IRC and ask "how do I do X?"…

After hours of searching, it is annoying when the reply is something like "does this chat look like Google to you?" (though fortunately those are pretty rare), but the answers trying to teach you how to discover answers to your original question are closer to "teaching a man to fish", or the Socratic method: you'll probably discover the answer soon (possibly with additional help), and will be able to discover similar ones in the future.

That approach is both more educational and may be easier on helpers themselves; answering the same (or very similar) questions, often from the same people, isn't particularly fun or productive.

Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#17
post #2

>Chat room helpers often will try and lead you to discover the right answer yourself. It may feel frustrating, but play their game and you will learn. This is the discussion level of the pyramid. I fucking hate this so much. You spend hours trawling through Google search results and finally decide the answer isn't out there. Stack overflow is caustic so you don't want to ask there. Hop on IRC and ask "how do I do X?"…

Absolutely not. If you've actually done the research that leads the knowledge gatekeeper to ask these, these questions are easy for you to answer. If you haven't then you're wasting their time.

>Absolutely not. If you've actually done the research that leads the knowledge gatekeeper to ask these, these questions are easy for you to answer.

Depending on the specifics of the question being asked, sure, I agree.

But speaking only for myself, I abhor playing silly coy games of cat and mouse. I only come to chat rooms as a third/last resort exactly because so often you can't get a direct answer without satisfying somebody's ego first. It's basically hazing.

I've got a thousand things to do and it would be more expedient for both asker and giver if the response to "How do I do X?" was a simple "via Y".

Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#18
Projects are great but there's a deceptively challenging step in "formulate a small and feasible project idea". It's really hard to come up with a small and feasible project when you're a beginner.

First, beginners don't know what's feasible. To a beginner all of programming is computer magic. There's not a lot of difference to a beginner between training a machine learning system for classifying different apples and a proper auth flow with OAuth[1]. Second, beginners don't have experience with product skills like scope cutting, setting milestones, etc. Some may say "that's all business nonsense!" but the lack of these skills has an effect.

When I'd mentor underclassmen in college, they'd always say something like "let's build a mobile app that lets people create accounts for their pets and then uses machine learning to pair them with the best possible dog walker" as their "small and feasible" project. And I'd have to be like woah there buddy let's get us to "a mobile app that lets you create an account and sign in" first.

What I always tell people is that they should make an outrageously simple project. One of my first projects was a blog in Rails. That's literally the first tutorial for Rails! But it turns out if you add stuff like comments and responsive design and deploy the blog, you end up learning a lot. Start stupidly simple and you'll be surprised how much you learn.

[1]: https://xkcd.com/1425/

Re: I will now send this to beginner programmers

#20
This misses a big part of why books and lectures are much more effective than the author presents. In books and lectures a practitioner is offering you shortcuts and advice to avoid pitfalls and accelerate your learning in a polished well thought out way (if the author/instructor is good - big if). Sure, not everyone retains them. But for those who do they can practice by doing without banging their head against the wall as much.

My experience is that those who can pay attention to a book/lecture and do plenty of practice by doing are the fastest learners.

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