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Modeling light for solar panel placement in urban settings

engineering.cmu.edu

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Re: Modeling light for solar panel placement in urban settings

#11

Post by MrGLaDOS »

Dave_Rosenthal wrote: post #3

Honest question, is there any good reason for doing solar on buildings in urban areas? It seems like solar power it should be considerably less expensive from large installations on cheaper land outside the city. The only reasons I can think of to built it on buildings are: 1) Virtue signaling. (Not a good reason) 2) The person who builds it truly wants solar but doesn’t own that other land so it’s simple to just use…

Solar PV takes up a lot of land. Rich, densely populated countries (like the Netherlands) find the areas outside of the cities to be more valuable as (recreational) nature, for upcoming housing projects, or for agricultural use.

Another (short term) practical reason is that remote areas where the land is cheap usually have a weaker connection to the electrical grid. As erecting vast solar parks takes months while fortifying the grid takes years (and is very expensive), this creates bottlenecks. Erecting new solar parks in such remote areas is therefore (temporarily) prohibited: https://www.sunforson.com/dutch-provinces-of-friesland-and-g...

Re: Modeling light for solar panel placement in urban settings

#12

Post by kkfx »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #7
Dave_Rosenthal wrote: post #3

Honest question, is there any good reason for doing solar on buildings in urban areas? It seems like solar power it should be considerably less expensive from large installations on cheaper land outside the city. The only reasons I can think of to built it on buildings are: 1) Virtue signaling. (Not a good reason) 2) The person who builds it truly wants solar but doesn’t own that other land so it’s simple to just use…

Yes, there is a very good reason. It is an action that can be done by an individual that doesn't require coordination with tens of millions of other people. This is a real value that should not be underestimated. With respect to you other points, yes, economies of scale and more ideal sites provide vast advantages commercial solar. Commercial solar farms are ~$1/watt and residential is $2-3/watt with subsidies.

Keep attention to an aspect: most setups are grid-connected because full autonomy is not possible or simply way too expensive. As a result while a single human can decide (depending on local laws on that topic) putting some panels and relevant inverters the grid need to cope with far less stable and predictable loads grid.

Keeping a grid up and running is a delicate balance between varying consumption and production, like having a tight rope with various needles suspended by the their eye, some with added weight, some with a hand to push the rope 50/60Hz. We normally "average the load" of a grid making large enough but not too large grids with few big generators and many small (or few large but constant) loads. With renewables and a gazillion of grid-tied inverters who tend to be (far) quicker than big ones the frequency keep a bit schizophrenic: inverters see constantly a bit too high or too low frequency and keep adjusting their output generated instability. If they are few others local consumers around them just absorb their output, but if they are MANY keeping the grid up is a nightmare.

Re: Modeling light for solar panel placement in urban settings

#13

Post by ghostbrainalpha »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #8
jjoonathan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you bury #3? Transmission and distribution aren't trivial. Under the right circumstances, people can get very attractive ROI periods, not to mention a degree of independence. I can't be the only one who learned from the Texas incident that our grids our metastable and one bad crash away from a multi-week outage. I can't be the only one who thought "F that, I want a plan B."

Transmission requirements don't go away with rooftop solar. In fact, they become a huge sticking point. If customers need transmission at night, or even once a year, they still need all the infrastructure in place.

Having a plan B, doesn't mean you completely abandon plan A.

Would decide against having a spare tire on your car, just because your traditional 4 tires were still required?

Re: Modeling light for solar panel placement in urban settings

#14

Post by solraph »

Dave_Rosenthal wrote: post #3

Honest question, is there any good reason for doing solar on buildings in urban areas? It seems like solar power it should be considerably less expensive from large installations on cheaper land outside the city. The only reasons I can think of to built it on buildings are: 1) Virtue signaling. (Not a good reason) 2) The person who builds it truly wants solar but doesn’t own that other land so it’s simple to just use…

Money (depending on location).

I had solar installed last year in Australia. The 6.5kw grid tied system has an estimated payback time of approx six years, even with Australia's appalling buy:sales ratio for electricity (3:1 last I looked). For various reasons, I was not eligible for subsidies, and it was still worth it. I pay around AUD$350 per year for electricity, which is mostly in winter.

In summer, pulling an average of 30 kwh per day off the panel and running that straight into the AC without needing to worry about the electricity bill is amazing.

It's worth noting that due the original subsidies to get the industry going, Australia has some of the cheapest residential solar installation prices in the world. A 6.6kw system (pre means tested subsidies) is around $8,000. That's the panels, the inverter, all the other bits and pieces and the installation. Electricity prices range from $0.20 kwh to $0.40 / kwh.

Re: Modeling light for solar panel placement in urban settings

#15

Post by s1artibartfast »

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #13
s1artibartfast wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transmission requirements don't go away with rooftop solar. In fact, they become a huge sticking point. If customers need transmission at night, or even once a year, they still need all the infrastructure in place.

Having a plan B, doesn't mean you completely abandon plan A. Would decide against having a spare tire on your car, just because your traditional 4 tires were still required?

That depends on if I have to pay for an entirely separate car to provide backup.

I think there are a lot of valid arguments to have residential solar, but I'm just saying that the big picture economics aren't really there. You have to pay to maintain the commercial transmission and generating capacity, and then pay again for a more expensive redundant local system.

Re: Modeling light for solar panel placement in urban settings

#16

Post by ZeroGravitas »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #8
jjoonathan wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you bury #3? Transmission and distribution aren't trivial. Under the right circumstances, people can get very attractive ROI periods, not to mention a degree of independence. I can't be the only one who learned from the Texas incident that our grids our metastable and one bad crash away from a multi-week outage. I can't be the only one who thought "F that, I want a plan B."

Transmission requirements don't go away with rooftop solar. In fact, they become a huge sticking point. If customers need transmission at night, or even once a year, they still need all the infrastructure in place.

The cost of transmission is partly a factor of peak usage.

Like if you build a highway and everyone commutes at exactly 9-5 then that dictates how many lanes you need.

In places with air-con, the distributed solar reduces the peak on a daily and yearly basis.

Distributed batteries also help with this.

In grid lingo these are called "non-wires alternatives" or "non-transmission alternatives"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-wires_alternatives

Re: Modeling light for solar panel placement in urban settings

#17

Post by ZeroGravitas »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #15
ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a plan B, doesn't mean you completely abandon plan A. Would decide against having a spare tire on your car, just because your traditional 4 tires were still required?

That depends on if I have to pay for an entirely separate car to provide backup. I think there are a lot of valid arguments to have residential solar, but I'm just saying that the big picture economics aren't really there. You have to pay to maintain the commercial transmission and generating capacity, and then pay again for a more expensive redundant local system.

Some grid operators will pay you to have a redundant local system, which suggests the economics do work:

https://greenmountainpower.com/news/network-of-powerwall-bat...

Re: Modeling light for solar panel placement in urban settings

#18

Post by causi »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #10
causi wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Maps has rough tree and structure geometry data for a huge portion of the globe. I wonder if you could scrape that and use it to calculate maximum sun exposure.

https://sunroof.withgoogle.com/

That's great, thanks!
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