Live data from Hacker News

Our Pointless Pursuit Of Semantic Value

coding.smashingmagazine.com

11–20 of 29 posts

Re: Our Pointless Pursuit Of Semantic Value

#11
XML, RDFA, Dublin Core and other structured specifications have very solid use cases, but those use cases do not account for the majority of interactions on the Web.

Frankly, this couldn't be more wrong. Every website in that list has plenty of semantic structure that is lost in the HTML.

- Facebook, Twitter, Linkedin and Wordpress (not to mention HN) has plenty of structure that could be surfaced by SIOC[1].

- Wikipedia is the king - see DBpedia[2].

- Amazon (and to a lesser extent, eBay) are a perfect fit for Good Relations[3], which is already used by Very Big websites to provide value to customers.

The problem with this post is that reduces the Semantic Structure movement to HTML5. Yes, HTML5 semantic tags may not be worth it, but there's much more to the semantic web technologies than that.

[1]: http://sioc-project.org/ [2]: http://dbpedia.org/ [3]: http://www.heppnetz.de/projects/goodrelations/

Re: Our Pointless Pursuit Of Semantic Value

#12
Slanted and biased. I mean, just look at the author's name :)

Actually, I quite agree. The days of being able to make sense of web pages via markup are gone. It was a good goal once, but the effort has failed. Time to move on and find a better accessibility solution.

Re: Our Pointless Pursuit Of Semantic Value

#13

XML, RDFA, Dublin Core and other structured specifications have very solid use cases, but those use cases do not account for the majority of interactions on the Web. Frankly, this couldn't be more wrong. Every website in that list has plenty of semantic structure that is lost in the HTML. - Facebook, Twitter, Linkedin and Wordpress (not to mention HN) has plenty of structure that could be surfaced by SIOC[1]. - Wikip…

[deleted]

Re: Our Pointless Pursuit Of Semantic Value

#14

XML, RDFA, Dublin Core and other structured specifications have very solid use cases, but those use cases do not account for the majority of interactions on the Web. Frankly, this couldn't be more wrong. Every website in that list has plenty of semantic structure that is lost in the HTML. - Facebook, Twitter, Linkedin and Wordpress (not to mention HN) has plenty of structure that could be surfaced by SIOC[1]. - Wikip…

Although I agree with your point, I think you've misread the nugget you've quoted.

Every website _does_ have plenty of semantics lost in the HTML, but considering the majority of interactions involve sighted users looking at individual sites using conventional browsers, the author is correct.

Part of the issue with the Semantic Web is a chicken and egg problem. Articles like this quite rightly say that it is not widely used by consumers, but then they fall into the Luddite trap of declaring it pointless because no one uses it. If popular sites provide it, and other popular sites and/or popular browsers leverage it, then you bet that consumers will start using it.

With only one mention of Google (in which he mentions SEO, rather than anything more useful), the author has missed out on the powerful use of both RDFa and Microformats in extracting semantic information from pages to display Rich Snippets amongst search results.

Re: Our Pointless Pursuit Of Semantic Value

#16
Semantic language has it's limits and rightfully so. The point of communication (sometimes) is to add something new. New things by definition have no pre-defined category. Therefore some content can only be described by inventing something. It's a moving target. I guess some attempt is a good thing like having a tag, but it will never be perfect and if some day it is perfect then we are a dead species. I sincerely hope that most data continues to defy description.

Re: Our Pointless Pursuit Of Semantic Value

#17
The conflation of "semantic HTML" with "the semantic web" has done immeasurable harm to both causes.

Yes, debating whether to mark up your forms using UL or OL or LABEL or SPAN or DIV or DL or TABLE or ... is a total waste of time. That doesn't tell us anything about the usefulness of machine-readable linked data, though. The two subjects have nothing in common except a relatively unusual adjective.

Re: Our Pointless Pursuit Of Semantic Value

#18
post #17

The conflation of "semantic HTML" with "the semantic web" has done immeasurable harm to both causes. Yes, debating whether to mark up your forms using UL or OL or LABEL or SPAN or DIV or DL or TABLE or ... is a total waste of time. That doesn't tell us anything about the usefulness of machine-readable linked data, though. The two subjects have nothing in common except a relatively unusual adjective.

Or, to put it another way, there are two different kinds of semantics in play; the semantics of a document (this is a title, this is a paragraph, ...), and the semantics of the subject of a document (this is the price of the item, this is how many we have left in stock, ...).

The costs and benefits of enhancing one are different and separate from the costs and benefits of enhancing the other.

Re: Our Pointless Pursuit Of Semantic Value

#19
post #2

God, yes. So much of what's repeated about the benefits of semantic markup are pie-in-the-sky. The link to the IRC logs in that piece was fascinating. To see Mark Pilgrim - who was always at the pragmatic end of things when it came to the accessibility debate - recanting many of the positions he takes in 'Dive into Accessibility' tells you how little of the things that we've been promised for years have actually amou…

until they can point you to a shipping user-agent that will make use of it Chicken and egg can be a problem. Someone could very well be saying "there's no point in developing a browser which can understand semantically structured data since almost no website implements it".

Yea, the sad thing is that, for example, back in the day Viola had built-in support for collapsible lists:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.html/msg/ddc97911c2f9a6f4

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.infosystems.www.authorin...

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.infosystems.www.authorin...

Re: Our Pointless Pursuit Of Semantic Value

#20
I think there are some generally "semantic" things that are just good practice, like using logical classnames, keeping markup and styles separate, using the right list type for the task, etc. but I completely agree with the article.

It's all about readability and, call it crazy, but I think markup and code are like poetry. Imagine trying to have universal semantics for poetry...it seems dumb, right? But general practices make sense and general types of structure are good for different things.

Code and markup should be looked at the same way. This article, to me, did a great job reminding us of that.

Post reply on HN