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Sony’s racing AI destroyed its human competitors by being nice (and fast)

technologyreview.com

11–20 of 46 posts

Re: Sony’s racing AI destroyed its human competitors by being nice (and fast)

#11
I think this is material info which needs to be noted:

> GT Sophy doesn’t get the same view of the game that human players do. Instead of reading pixels off a screen, the program takes in updates about the position of its car on the track and the positions of the cars around it. It also gets sent information about the virtual physical forces affecting its vehicle. In response, GT Sophy tells the car to turn or brake. This back-and-forth between GT Sophy and the game happens 10 times a second, which Wurman and his colleagues claim matches the reaction time of human players.

The AI is getting precise 3D position data and physics data not only about its car but competitors cars - from a 3D physics simulation. The human competitors only get a 2D visual view based on what a race car driver can see from the cockpit. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but it seems like the AI is simply deriving the optimal parameters encoded in the 3D physics simulation through iterative testing based on precise 3D physics data supplied directly from the simulation. The humans aren't getting the same data. The human drivers must visually estimate the physics vectors and precise 3D positions from a limited yet rapidly changing 2D rendering. This is quite different from what I initially assumed based on the headline and opening paragraphs of the article.

Given the same precise 3D and vector data in searchable form along with sufficient compute power, it seems plausible a team of human statisticians could work out more optimal driving parameters than top human drivers limited to 2D visuals in nine 24 hour work periods (which is what the AI required to train).

Re: Sony’s racing AI destroyed its human competitors by being nice (and fast)

#12

so it picked the best moves on time? that's super cool. but how's it etiquette?

> so it picked the best moves on time? that's super cool. but how's it etiquette? Having played GT since it's inception, and been involved in motorsports and used GT to learn a few tracks before GT Academy became a thing: on the track you have to have a certain degree of respect for your fellow riders/drivers, these are extremely dangerous machines capable of lots of harm from carelessness or even a simple mistake so…

ah, makes sense, thanks for sharing :)

Re: Sony’s racing AI destroyed its human competitors by being nice (and fast)

#13
“I don’t think we’ve learned general principles yet about how to deal with human norms that you have to respect,”

That’s only in phase 1.

Afterwards when humans are outnumbered by vast bot swarms, and all their content and capital is vanishingly tiny, these norms won’t matter. Also, human participation won’t matter, and will likely be similar to the paralympics or women’s tennis (but orders of magnitude suckier).

Entertainment for a tiny niche of the market (humans performing for humans) will not be an economically significant space, kind of like classical music today or better yet renaissance music.

EVERYTHING you are used to online — including these comments - can already be convincingly deepfaked by adversarial networks trained on throwing bullshit at a wall and seeing what sticks. And this bullshit can actually be a superstimulus that outperforms genuine human interaction. What is missing is decentralized botnets swarming at scale to gradually and unrelentingly amass karma points across the swarm, and use them to move sentiment, markets etc. but that’s coming. Afterwards it’s onto subverting democratic systems with sybil attacks, as well as judicial systems with parallel construction and deepfake “evidence”.

Re: Sony’s racing AI destroyed its human competitors by being nice (and fast)

#14

I think this is material info which needs to be noted: > GT Sophy doesn’t get the same view of the game that human players do. Instead of reading pixels off a screen, the program takes in updates about the position of its car on the track and the positions of the cars around it. It also gets sent information about the virtual physical forces affecting its vehicle. In response, GT Sophy tells the car to turn or brake.…

It's always pseudoscience.

AI models correlation(Measures(X), Measures(Y)).

Marketing sells it as using a theory of how X causes Y.

In this case, we want a machine to acquire a causal model of how its actions produce effects, by measuring X and Y itself under its own actions.

There is no AI that does this. What we have is a machine "with the answers already" (ie., no need to measure) that has a correlative model.

Re: Sony’s racing AI destroyed its human competitors by being nice (and fast)

#15

I think this is material info which needs to be noted: > GT Sophy doesn’t get the same view of the game that human players do. Instead of reading pixels off a screen, the program takes in updates about the position of its car on the track and the positions of the cars around it. It also gets sent information about the virtual physical forces affecting its vehicle. In response, GT Sophy tells the car to turn or brake.…

That's why humans should insist on competing with AIs in our world not theirs (simulation).

When it matters, the playing field will be stacked heavily against the human who will not have direct access to the informed encoded in the virtual world. Putting it differently, any AI in a simulation is in some sense indistinguishable from the simulation itself (or at least, you should assume so).

Re: Sony’s racing AI destroyed its human competitors by being nice (and fast)

#16

I think this is material info which needs to be noted: > GT Sophy doesn’t get the same view of the game that human players do. Instead of reading pixels off a screen, the program takes in updates about the position of its car on the track and the positions of the cars around it. It also gets sent information about the virtual physical forces affecting its vehicle. In response, GT Sophy tells the car to turn or brake.…

It caught my eye as well.

If you imagine a real car, this is the sort of detailed sensor data you would get from it. The sensor data in the game is never wrong though, as it comes direct from memory.

The other thing which caught my eye was this:

> For example, GT Sophy often drops a wheel onto the grass at the edge of the track and then skids into turns.

This works consistently because (again) it's not the real world where the grass has subtle variations.

It would be very interesting indeed to see such an AI compete on a real track, but it may not be as clear cut a victory when the very finely tuned senses of a human racing driver are in play.

Re: Sony’s racing AI destroyed its human competitors by being nice (and fast)

#17

I think this is material info which needs to be noted: > GT Sophy doesn’t get the same view of the game that human players do. Instead of reading pixels off a screen, the program takes in updates about the position of its car on the track and the positions of the cars around it. It also gets sent information about the virtual physical forces affecting its vehicle. In response, GT Sophy tells the car to turn or brake.…

>The AI is getting precise 3D position data and physics data not only about its car but competitors cars

GT Sophy is receiving the position of its competitors (which is rhetorical statement because of course it needs to know their position), but where does it say that it's receiving the physics data of its competitors? It does mention that it does receive 'the information about the virtual physical forces affecting its vehicle', but only the forces affecting its vehicle and not the forces affecting the other vehicles (which, IMO, would be irrelevant and, quite possibly, impossible to process given the number of cars on track and the limits of its game loop processing time).

Re: Sony’s racing AI destroyed its human competitors by being nice (and fast)

#18
post #5

FTA: For now, Sony is sticking to games. It plans to put GT Sophy in a future version of Gran Turismo. “We’d like this to become part of the product,” says Peter Stone, executive director of Sony AI America. “Sony’s an entertainment company, and we want this to make the game more entertaining.” Also FTA: “You don’t want to do that because you’ll make a mistake. It’s like a controlled crash,” she says. “I could maybe…

> I don’t see how a computer racer that destroys human competition would make the game more entertaining

Once it knows how to race you can restrict it. Have it be less aggressive, artificially lower its car’s power, tell it not to play to the edge of physics.

Gran Turismo 7 is a lot of fun, but the current AI players might as well be on a slot car track. They practically race single-file taking the same lines as every other car. It’s clearly not real.

Injecting virtual Sophies, tuned in various ways, may make the game feel more like a real race. It would also allow you to provide a much tougher challenge for the top end players.

Re: Sony’s racing AI destroyed its human competitors by being nice (and fast)

#19
-- if you watch the video - it looks like it just has a considerably better grasp of the physics engine at a fundamental level - she mentions at the end that the AI knew when to break into a corner - when to push out - in some instances she wasn't breaking hard into the corner - then pushing out fast --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZbA_CDoWrk&ab_channel=GRANT...

Re: Sony’s racing AI destroyed its human competitors by being nice (and fast)

#20

I think this is material info which needs to be noted: > GT Sophy doesn’t get the same view of the game that human players do. Instead of reading pixels off a screen, the program takes in updates about the position of its car on the track and the positions of the cars around it. It also gets sent information about the virtual physical forces affecting its vehicle. In response, GT Sophy tells the car to turn or brake.…

That's why humans should insist on competing with AIs in our world not theirs (simulation). When it matters, the playing field will be stacked heavily against the human who will not have direct access to the informed encoded in the virtual world. Putting it differently, any AI in a simulation is in some sense indistinguishable from the simulation itself (or at least, you should assume so).

It's hard to draw the boundary. We could say that AI should only be given access to exactly the same information that humans have access to. But AI will have magnitudes more memory and compute resources. So for example, an AI could only have the 2D view but it could store, access and process the 2D view in ways a human cannot.
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