Why Founders Should Emulate Wozniak, Not Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Founders Should Emulate Wozniak, Not Jobs

#11

Post by kstenerud » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 5:34 PM UTC

trevor99 wrote: post #7

kstenerud wrote: post #5

So what I'm hearing is that tenacious Steve failed a bunch of times before he finally hit one out of the park. Sounds like an entrepreneur to me.

"Founders today will not have the opportunity to learn the lessons Jobs did because they don’t have the resources and klout that Jobs had." Jobs was a millionaire when he failed a bunch of times and lost all his money. Are you a millionaire?

Nope. But I've certainly failed a bunch of times. And now I'm going for the brass ring again.

Work within your means, but reach for things that are out of your means.

Re: Why Founders Should Emulate Wozniak, Not Jobs

#12

Post by wes-exp » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 5:34 PM UTC

gallerytungsten wrote: post #2

re: "if anything his most important contribution was just general hustling." If you don't have "general hustling" going on your company isn't going anywhere.

Even if we assume that Wozniak was much more essential than Jobs, the fact is that Jobs persuaded Wozniak to do the startup in the first place. And if I recall correctly from the biography by Isaacson, it took quite a bit of convincing on Jobs' part to get Woz to leave his secure job at HP.

Re: Why Founders Should Emulate Wozniak, Not Jobs

#13

Post by microtherion » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 5:36 PM UTC

Having read the same biography, I came to rather different conclusions: True, without Wozniak, there wouldn't have been an Apple I and II. However, without Jobs, the Apple I and II would never have SOLD. A company needs good engineering AND hustle.

Re: Why Founders Should Emulate Wozniak, Not Jobs

#14

Post by trevor99 » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 5:37 PM UTC

dporan wrote: post #9

Steve Jobs played a minor role in Apple’s early success with the Apple II I disagree. Here's what Isaacson writes (p. 73): If it had not been for Jobs, [Wozniak] might still be handing out schematics of his boards for free at the back of Homebrew meetings. It was Jobs who had turned his ingenious designs into a budding business, just as he had with the Blue Box . . . . To make the Apple II successful required more th…

I noted that Jobs's hustling was important. His product vision, design aesthetic, and RDF were not, which is where most founders go wrong.

Not sure you read the book carefully--many investors laughed in Jobs's face not because it was a bad idea, but because he had BO and they couldn't stand him.

Also--Steve was lucky to be Wozniak's best friend, whom most talented engineers came to Apple because of. Mike Scott (the CEO of Apple since it launched the Apple II) is the person who built the team, not Jobs.

Re: Why Founders Should Emulate Wozniak, Not Jobs

#15

Post by trevor99 » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 5:38 PM UTC

microtherion wrote: post #13

Having read the same biography, I came to rather different conclusions: True, without Wozniak, there wouldn't have been an Apple I and II. However, without Jobs, the Apple I and II would never have SOLD. A company needs good engineering AND hustle.

All Jobs did was get Wozniak to quit his job. Markkula was the one who got the Apple II beyond the hobbyist market which Jobs could never have done.

Re: Why Founders Should Emulate Wozniak, Not Jobs

#16

Post by trevor99 » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 5:39 PM UTC

wes-exp wrote: post #12

gallerytungsten wrote: post #2

re: "if anything his most important contribution was just general hustling." If you don't have "general hustling" going on your company isn't going anywhere.

Even if we assume that Wozniak was much more essential than Jobs, the fact is that Jobs persuaded Wozniak to do the startup in the first place. And if I recall correctly from the biography by Isaacson, it took quite a bit of convincing on Jobs' part to get Woz to leave his secure job at HP.

You're right it did take a lot of convincing and hustling. It didn't take product vision from Jobs to make the Apple II a success however. Look at all the products Jobs tried to produce through his "vision," they all failed until the iPod.

Re: Why Founders Should Emulate Wozniak, Not Jobs

#17

Post by trevor99 » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 5:40 PM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #11

trevor99 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Founders today will not have the opportunity to learn the lessons Jobs did because they don’t have the resources and klout that Jobs had." Jobs was a millionaire when he failed a bunch of times and lost all his money. Are you a millionaire?

Nope. But I've certainly failed a bunch of times. And now I'm going for the brass ring again. Work within your means, but reach for things that are out of your means.

I agree failure is important. It's easy to start with a large fortune and end with a smaller one though.

Re: Why Founders Should Emulate Wozniak, Not Jobs

#18

Post by jaequery » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 5:41 PM UTC

Steve Jobs was one of the hardest working man in the industry. Enough said.

Re: Why Founders Should Emulate Wozniak, Not Jobs

#19

Post by bradleyland » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 5:43 PM UTC

I cannot understand how you could read this biography and arrive at the conclusion that any one person should be "emulated". What I took away was that all components of Apple's success were mutually inclusive. It's unlikely that it could have happened any other way. You can pick a thousand points along the line wherein the events might have not come together as they did, and you do not end up with the Apple that exists today.

I don't seek to "emulate" Jobs. I look at his life, and I hope to learn from his mistakes, as well as his successes. You should do the same from Wozniak's life. Likewise with your family and other mentors.

Reading "Steve Jobs" reminded me of reading Watchmen because he is often cast as the "American Entrepreneurial Hero". But underneath, Steve Jobs was as deeply flawed as any of us, and that is the truth of our humanity. None of us are perfect, yet we are all capable of greatness.

Re: Why Founders Should Emulate Wozniak, Not Jobs

#20

Post by keiferski » Tue, Nov 08, 2011, 5:43 PM UTC

trevor99 wrote: post #8

dy wrote: post #6

According to Steve, you shouldn't be emulating anyone - be yourself. You'll never be a better Steve Jobs than Steve was - or a better Woz than Woz was. The key thing I got out of the article is how important your co-founder is - one thing Steve seems to have is that he recognized talent very quickly (Woz, Ive at the age of 29) and developed them.

Or he just got lucky and was Wozniak's best friend from High School. Which is the true story.

Ive is much more responsible for Apple's current renaissance than Wozniak.