The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#11

Post by ido » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 7:12 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #9

ido wrote: post #4

Ok let me make a probably very unpopular comment here: their 3rd point lists "companies benchmarking against all regional or global companies" but in fact what they mean is "companies benchmarking against the highest paying US tech hubs". I assure you "all regional or global companies" also include Vietnamese companies paying junior devs $300 per month - what is the advantage of the European engineer that is worth pa…

> what is the advantage of the European engineer that is worth paying >=10x as much? They produce better product.

Maybe they do, maybe not? I mean that is exactly the same argument SFBA-based engineers can also claim. I believe it is mostly untrue.

When I studied in Vienna a fellow student of mine returned to Poland after uni because his wife wanted to & we both started our first jobs as juniors at the same time with comparable positions, me in Vienna and him in Gdansk. His salary was almost exactly 1/3 of mine & I don't believe there was any performance component to that, I was simply earning according to Viennese standards and he according to Gdansk standards.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#12

Post by nerdponx » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 7:14 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #5

ceeplusplus wrote: post #3

Unfortunately this misses the difference in taxation vs. the US. You pay almost nothing for healthcare at any tech company and pay much lower taxes (both income and sales tax). So European offers are still much less competitive than the US.

A common criticism is that “but you get so much more for your taxes in Europe”. I have a counterpoint - you get the choice of what you want to buy in the US. I’d rather keep more of my take-home pay and do without certain services, or better yet choose the provider (and quality / expense) of such services if I want them. Somehow the bureaucracy in the US is still massive, so I can only imagine what far higher tax rat…

The biggest US government expenses are the military and overcomplicated inefficient social programs (Medicare, food stamps, Social Security).

Moreover, the logical extreme of this argument is to just not have a government at all. I don't need bridges because I don't drive. I don't need the fire department because I am careful. Etc. It doesn't make sense, and the truth is that some things either best administered centrally, at scale, and protected from market forces, and/or the inefficiencies of central planning are still better for society as a whole (even if not for you) than the alternative outcomes that would arise if you rely on various market-like systems.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#13

Post by nerdponx » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 7:15 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #8

ido wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax rates at the higher taxed states in the US (like California) are actually not lower than in western europe while still not providing you with all the services western european governments do.

I live in Massachusetts, and somehow we actually have fairly low taxation (5.25% flat tax) despite our reputation and being deep blue politically. I average about 30% total taxation in a high tax bracket. If I was trying to avoid taxes on real wealth I would move to Florida for 6 months and do the other 6 in Boston (as have many friends of mine). Why people keep paying California / NYC tax rates in software dev jobs…

I think MA is probably the state with the best "bang for buck" in terms of what the government provides per dollar of taxes paid.

NY is comparatively insulting to reside in, because the government is so wasteful/corrupt there and is therefore capable of providing so much less (not to mention its legendary ability to stall legislation indefinitely).

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#14

Post by moonchrome » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 7:16 PM UTC

ido wrote: post #11

wyager wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what is the advantage of the European engineer that is worth paying >=10x as much? They produce better product.

Maybe they do, maybe not? I mean that is exactly the same argument SFBA-based engineers can also claim. I believe it is mostly untrue. When I studied in Vienna a fellow student of mine returned to Poland after uni because his wife wanted to & we both started our first jobs as juniors at the same time with comparable positions, me in Vienna and him in Gdansk. His salary was almost exactly 1/3 of mine & I don't believe…

In more recent times (especially post COVID), by the time both of you are competent enough be independent he will be earning as much as you for 1/3 cost of living.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#15

Post by rocgf » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 7:17 PM UTC

ido wrote: post #11

wyager wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what is the advantage of the European engineer that is worth paying >=10x as much? They produce better product.

Maybe they do, maybe not? I mean that is exactly the same argument SFBA-based engineers can also claim. I believe it is mostly untrue. When I studied in Vienna a fellow student of mine returned to Poland after uni because his wife wanted to & we both started our first jobs as juniors at the same time with comparable positions, me in Vienna and him in Gdansk. His salary was almost exactly 1/3 of mine & I don't believe…

Your example is anectodal, hence basically worthless.

There is a lot of inefficieny in the market, some of it inherent, some of it due to artifical constraints like location, but over time those tend to naturally get normalized. What I'm trying to say is that if it really were better for software to be built in Vietnam for 10% of the cost, that would just happen.

It may be that companies have not figured out this neat trick or it might be that there are some inherent issues with developing software based purely on the cost.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#16

Post by 988747 » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 7:18 PM UTC

ido wrote: post #11

wyager wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what is the advantage of the European engineer that is worth paying >=10x as much? They produce better product.

Maybe they do, maybe not? I mean that is exactly the same argument SFBA-based engineers can also claim. I believe it is mostly untrue. When I studied in Vienna a fellow student of mine returned to Poland after uni because his wife wanted to & we both started our first jobs as juniors at the same time with comparable positions, me in Vienna and him in Gdansk. His salary was almost exactly 1/3 of mine & I don't believe…

How long ago was that? Are you guys still in touch? Because it seems to me that recently developer salaries in Poland matched or even surpassed those in Austria :)

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#17

Post by ido » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

moonchrome wrote: post #14

ido wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they do, maybe not? I mean that is exactly the same argument SFBA-based engineers can also claim. I believe it is mostly untrue. When I studied in Vienna a fellow student of mine returned to Poland after uni because his wife wanted to & we both started our first jobs as juniors at the same time with comparable positions, me in Vienna and him in Gdansk. His salary was almost exactly 1/3 of mine & I don't believe…

In more recent times (especially post COVID), by the time both of you are competent enough be independent he will be earning as much as you for 1/3 cost of living.

Cost of living in Poland is not actually 1/3 of Austria, the difference in cost is much smaller than in salary. But it's true that the more senior you are the less geography affects your wage.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#18

Post by ido » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 7:21 PM UTC

988747 wrote: post #16

ido wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they do, maybe not? I mean that is exactly the same argument SFBA-based engineers can also claim. I believe it is mostly untrue. When I studied in Vienna a fellow student of mine returned to Poland after uni because his wife wanted to & we both started our first jobs as juniors at the same time with comparable positions, me in Vienna and him in Gdansk. His salary was almost exactly 1/3 of mine & I don't believe…

How long ago was that? Are you guys still in touch? Because it seems to me that recently developer salaries in Poland matched or even surpassed those in Austria :)

It was maybe 15 years ago, but today instead of Poland it would be some poor Asian country. My point is that it's not just that Europeans earn less than Americans, they also earn more than other regions. If you want fairness that also applies to people under you, not just people above you.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#19

Post by Ozzie_osman » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 7:21 PM UTC

ido wrote: post #4

Ok let me make a probably very unpopular comment here: their 3rd point lists "companies benchmarking against all regional or global companies" but in fact what they mean is "companies benchmarking against the highest paying US tech hubs". I assure you "all regional or global companies" also include Vietnamese companies paying junior devs $300 per month - what is the advantage of the European engineer that is worth pa…

So my read of the second and third groups was that the companies are being competitive against the top of that range (vs the first group that is just benchmarking against local peers). If I'm competing to win a competition, it doesn't matter how low the lowest performer is. It does matter who the highest performers are.

So I feel like you may have just read the definition incorrectly (granted article could also have been more clear).

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#20

Post by ido » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 7:22 PM UTC

rocgf wrote: post #15

ido wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they do, maybe not? I mean that is exactly the same argument SFBA-based engineers can also claim. I believe it is mostly untrue. When I studied in Vienna a fellow student of mine returned to Poland after uni because his wife wanted to & we both started our first jobs as juniors at the same time with comparable positions, me in Vienna and him in Gdansk. His salary was almost exactly 1/3 of mine & I don't believe…

Your example is anectodal, hence basically worthless. There is a lot of inefficieny in the market, some of it inherent, some of it due to artifical constraints like location, but over time those tend to naturally get normalized. What I'm trying to say is that if it really were better for software to be built in Vietnam for 10% of the cost, that would just happen. It may be that companies have not figured out this nea…

My point was that this applies exactly the same for why European salaries are lower than American salaries. It makes no sense but it equally doesn't make sense that Europeans earn more than Asians or Africans. If you want equality it doesn't just mean you get to equalize with the top end, it also means the bottom gets to equalize with you.