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Consciousness is not computation

joe-antognini.github.io

11–20 of 767 posts

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#11
I think the author is misunderstanding the XKCD comic about rocks [1] (or maybe I am). Just because it's possible to run a simulation of the universe on rocks, doesn't mean that rocks are conscious or turing complete. You can't forget about the person who is manipulating the rocks. The system as a whole is turing complete. Likewise with the bar of iron example that the author gave, you can't forget about the person interpreting the atoms in the bar of iron. The system as a whole is turing complete (and also naturally conscious, because the person doing the interpretation is conscious).

And there is nothing physical necessary to represent such systems. You can simulate turing complete systems inside turing complete systems [2]. So I don't see why consciousness has to be a "physical phenomenon" as the author claims.

[1]: https://xkcd.com/505/

[2]: https://youtu.be/xP5-iIeKXE8

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#12

The "Chinese Room" argument isn't an argument against consciousness being computation. In the same way the man in the room doesn't understand Chinese to be able to produce Chinese, the mind in your brain does not need to understand consciousness to be conscious. The man in the room can be said to pass the Turing test, and so can you.

I've always felt this way about lucid dreaming. How do I know if I am aware during my dream, or if I am just dreaming that I am aware?

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#13
"Running a program" is a rather vague expression.

We could excuse philosophers for using such vague expressions because most of them aren't very tech-savvy. For engineers, though, that kind of wording should immediately raise a red flag.

Running a computer program involves many different kinds of things. There's data (state), and there's logic to manipulate said data. There's communication among the various components of the machine, and a whole lot of machinery dedicated to synchronizing said communication because otherwise it all becomes garbage. Any one of these, or a combination of these, could be a candidate for the seat of consciousness.

Philosophers who talk about computation are often preoccupied with the fancy logic gates, and not so much on the mundane circuitry needed to maintain state and synchronize it across components. To me, though, those parts seem much more likely to be analogous to what we call consciousness. Treating consciousness as a kind of state, synchronized across the brain, is the closest way to capture the author's insistence that it is a kind of "unified, integrated whole." Drugs alter consciousness by creating network partitions, inhibiting cache invalidation, corrupting data in flight, etc.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#15
post #6
post #3

I think people start with the premise that consciousness is a specific “thing”, that it is unique and special to humans (and maybe dogs because we like them but definitely not spiders and flies because we don’t) and then try to work backwards to define it in some ways that keeps it special. I don’t think consciousness is so specific, and I think people aren’t clear about how they think about it as something separate…

> I think people start with the premise that consciousness is a specific “thing”, that it is unique and special to humans (and maybe dogs because we like them but definitely not spiders and flies because we don’t) Ah, but as far as I can tell this author only grants their own consciousness. They’re doing the typical thing of starting from literally nothing more than a claim of the form “there is no way I could ever p…

Every chain of reasoning needs to bootstrap with one or more statements that are entirely self-evident, such that they don't need to be justified by reference to other statements. Otherwise you run into an infinite loop.

"I'm a conscious entity" is about as close to Descartes' "I think, therefore I am" as modern philosophers are willing to go.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#16
The author's "triviality argument" doesn't hold up:

> 1. To say that a physical system is a computer requires an external observer to map the physical states of that system onto the abstract states of a Turing machine.

> 2. Consciousness does not require an external observer to exist.

> 3. Therefore, consciousness cannot be reduced to computation.

A physical system may be a computer regardless of whether it is verified to be so by an external observer or not; it does not require an external observer at all.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#17

The "Chinese Room" argument isn't an argument against consciousness being computation. In the same way the man in the room doesn't understand Chinese to be able to produce Chinese, the mind in your brain does not need to understand consciousness to be conscious. The man in the room can be said to pass the Turing test, and so can you.

What a confused post.

> The "Chinese Room" argument isn't an argument against consciousness being computation.

This is exactly what it is. Particularly with regard to "thinking," albeit not "consciousness" proper. Though the corollary is that only conscious things can think.

> The man in the room can be said to pass the Turing test, and so can you.

The Turing test is much weaker than the Chinese room experiment. A significant number of chatbots might pass the Turing test, but that has absolutely nothing to do with sentience.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#18
The idea that you cannot get to consciousness from computation requires accepting on faith alone that consciousness is magic. It’s fundamentally a religious-like bias.

It’s not magic, I’m afraid.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#20
post #17

The "Chinese Room" argument isn't an argument against consciousness being computation. In the same way the man in the room doesn't understand Chinese to be able to produce Chinese, the mind in your brain does not need to understand consciousness to be conscious. The man in the room can be said to pass the Turing test, and so can you.

What a confused post. > The "Chinese Room" argument isn't an argument against consciousness being computation. This is exactly what it is. Particularly with regard to "thinking," albeit not "consciousness" proper. Though the corollary is that only conscious things can think. > The man in the room can be said to pass the Turing test, and so can you. The Turing test is much weaker than the Chinese room experiment. A si…

> This is exactly what it is...

I'm literally taking the narrow conclusion from the second paragraph: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chinese-room/

> This is exactly what it is ... albeit not "consciousness" proper

Which is it? You conceded the first point in the second.

> The Turing test is much weaker than the Chinese room experiment.

Yes agreed, this comment on the Turing test was a reference to the linked article that makes the same claim. I'm not conflating consciousness with "being able to pass the Turing test". It's a remark on how understanding consciousness need not be a prerequisite of consciousness.

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