How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#11

Post by wincy » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 6:40 PM UTC

tomtheelder wrote: post #4

Beltalowda wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to use them at school; my hands and clothes were almost permanently ink-stained. I do not miss them.

That was my experience as a kid, but using them as an adult that’s never the case. I think it was a combination of cheap pens and a child’s carelessness.

Pens in general are terrible for me as a left handed person. The only ones I like are the Frixion pens, as their ink seems to actually dry fast enough to not cover my hand in ink. Really writing as a left handed person feels like a fool’s errand. It just wasn’t made for me.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#12

Post by the_only_law » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 6:42 PM UTC

wincy wrote: post #11

tomtheelder wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my experience as a kid, but using them as an adult that’s never the case. I think it was a combination of cheap pens and a child’s carelessness.

Pens in general are terrible for me as a left handed person. The only ones I like are the Frixion pens, as their ink seems to actually dry fast enough to not cover my hand in ink. Really writing as a left handed person feels like a fool’s errand. It just wasn’t made for me.

Pencils do it for me too, the graphite rubs off on the side of my palm and onto the paper. I rarely find myself physical writing much nowadays though.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#13

Post by gerikson » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 6:44 PM UTC

This is hardly the first time a cursive style has died out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%BCtterlin>

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#14

Post by Beltalowda » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 6:47 PM UTC

quanto wrote: post #6

Writing utensils definitely influence scripts. One tidbit I like is the evolution of the Burmese script. The Burmese script was originally square format but became round and cursive due to the popular use of palm leaves (and others) as a medium: straight lines would rip the leaves, so softer round strokes were preferred [1]. The round cursive style is in stark contrast to modern Devanagari (India) where the strong ov…

A bit of an aside, I really like the Ethiopian Wikipedia page on Amharic[1], an Ethiopian language written in the Geʽez script. Traditionally ፡ is used as a word separator in the Geʽez script to write Amharic (and ። as a full stop, looks like : and :: in case your browser doesn't render the fonts).

But more recently the space has become popular, probably because it's easier on computers and due to English/Western influences.

The nice thing about that Wikipedia page is that the first three – and presumably the oldest – paragraphs use the classic ፡, after which it mostly switches to spaces in the newer texts. Traditionalists will think it's horrible and you should stick to the "old ways", but languages and scripts have been changing ever since they were invented, and you can see the evolution of a writing system right there on a single page, which I think is kinda neat.

(Note I do not speak Amharic, I "discovered" this while researching different writing systems for some code I was writing).

[1]: https://am.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%8A%A0%E1%88%9B%E1%88%AD%E1...

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#15

Post by LorenPechtel » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

rchowe wrote: post #7

When I was in school, I wondered why my hand hurt from writing so much. I switched to gel pens and my hand fatigue went way down. We put up with a lot in the name of cost. The thin blue Bic pens are much cheaper, but when I have to use one I really hate it.

Yeah, gel pens are vastly superior to standard ball points.

However, the fundamental issue of not needing to write as much as we used to I believe is dominant. I have abandoned using cursive because it takes practice to keep it readable--and I simply don't write enough. I can type faster on a keyboard than I can write with a pen and what's in the computer is more useful--paper is only of value when you need to do something other than make letters. At this point most of my use of a pen is filling out forms.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#16

Post by rg111 » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:04 PM UTC

iancmceachern wrote: post #10

Beltalowda wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to use them at school; my hands and clothes were almost permanently ink-stained. I do not miss them.

I've had a higher end one as an adult as my main daily pen for years now and have yet to have a single spill (knock on wood).

I have several higher end fountain pens that are my daily drivers. And I have zero incidents as well.

I own several Lamy, Pilot, and Platinum.

If you ever write with a Pilot Custom 823 on decent paper, you will never be able to go back.

(If you enjoy the friction in writing, you need to try Lamy Al-Star/Safari fine nib, or Pilot Metropolitan fine nib. Medium nibs are smooth and some people don't like that.)

And even as the prices are high, they do last literal lifetimes.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#17

Post by somat » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:08 PM UTC

I would say that computers(and to a lesser degree typewriters) are what killed cursive.

Cursive is the sloppy form of latin characters that you use when you have to write by hand a lot, the reduced specification on word separation and form really help the letters get out quick. see shorthand for an even quicker modern engineered version of this. When you no longer have to manually produce a large body of text(you have your machine spirit do the writing for you) It no longer makes as much sense to keep the cursive forms around. A cultural loss for sure but in the same vein as knowing how to skin a rabbit.

Some languages (arabic comes to mind) have had their cursive form completely replace their block form(I actually don't know if arabic ever had a block form, it would certainly be incorrect if you tried to use a block form of arabic today). Unfortunately the same slurred features that make cursive so quick to write also make it difficult for the machine spirit to handle. Now I want to look up arabic typewriters.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#18

Post by winety » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:39 PM UTC

wincy wrote: post #11

tomtheelder wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my experience as a kid, but using them as an adult that’s never the case. I think it was a combination of cheap pens and a child’s carelessness.

Pens in general are terrible for me as a left handed person. The only ones I like are the Frixion pens, as their ink seems to actually dry fast enough to not cover my hand in ink. Really writing as a left handed person feels like a fool’s errand. It just wasn’t made for me.

As for some solutions: The choice of the writing instrument helps a lot. While fountain pens feel amazing to write with, one looks like a smurf after writing with one. Hard pencils are one of the better choices. Writing slower also helps a bit.

A “different” solution would be to write from right to left. I’ve tried it multiple times — both writing with mirrored symbols and writing non-mirrored symbols. The positive was that my hands were a lot cleaner. The negatives were that others couldn’t read what I wrote and that I looked as a crazy person.

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#19

Post by molbioguy » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:54 PM UTC

rg111 wrote: post #16

iancmceachern wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a higher end one as an adult as my main daily pen for years now and have yet to have a single spill (knock on wood).

I have several higher end fountain pens that are my daily drivers. And I have zero incidents as well. I own several Lamy, Pilot, and Platinum. If you ever write with a Pilot Custom 823 on decent paper, you will never be able to go back. (If you enjoy the friction in writing, you need to try Lamy Al-Star/Safari fine nib, or Pilot Metropolitan fine nib. Medium nibs are smooth and some people don't like that.) And even…

Any suggestions for good lower cost pens?

Re: How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive

#20

Post by squirt » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:58 PM UTC

somat wrote: post #17

I would say that computers(and to a lesser degree typewriters) are what killed cursive. Cursive is the sloppy form of latin characters that you use when you have to write by hand a lot, the reduced specification on word separation and form really help the letters get out quick. see shorthand for an even quicker modern engineered version of this. When you no longer have to manually produce a large body of text(you hav…

> Cursive is the sloppy form of latin characters that you use when you have to write by hand a lot, the reduced specification on word separation and form really help the letters get out quick.

This is a an incorrect view on the derivation of cursive, as well as a fundamental misunderstanding in the precise and systemic nature of script.

Source: professional penman & calligrapher.