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Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

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Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#11

Post by filoleg »

theandrewbailey wrote: post #6
EddieDante wrote: post #4

I wouldn't begrudge a SWE who makes $400K, especially if they live in California with their outrageous cost of living. Most workers in the US are woefully underpaid . Wage growth has been mostly stagnant since 1975 while productivity and profits trend ever upward. https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/

400K total compensation doesn't sound out of line for a particularly niche senior dev/software architect in California.

Or just a random senior dev at a FAANG. Can't speak for all of them, but that's definitely not uncommon at Meta/Google. And you are certainly gonna shoot above that number at L6.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#12

Post by fartsucker69 »

flappyeagle wrote: post #8

No. Ryan is not saying anyone is overpaid. He's saying that many business models are impossible. The market is saying that those business models shouldn't exist. This is true no matter what the number is. Slave labor enabled the American South to deploy business models that are impossible today. Doesn't mean it was good.

He would be wrong with those claims, too. Even those """"overpaid"""" developers make only a small part of whatever the overall company makes. Perhaps this is counterintuitive but I would not be surprised at all if that percentage is smaller than with regular companies and lower paid workers.

It's simply that tech was and still is an exploding sector and a ton of resources are poured into it. People who are experienced programmers now are just lucky enough to ride the wave. It won't last forever. But it's certainly real for now.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#13

Post by IceMetalPunk »

Depends entirely on the specifics of the job and the location of dev. Salaries are often determined partially by the cost of living for the employee, which varies from one place to another. I know, for instance, that people on my team at work make more than me for the same job simply because they live in NYC, which has a higher cost of living than I do here in suburban south Florida.

My personal philosophy about money is often ridiculed, but the way I see it, if you have enough money to live happily and healthily (and support your family, if you have one), then you're being paid enough, and anything above that is just a bonus cherry on top. I know my salary is lower than some devs would ever accept, but I'm a single guy, so it's more than enough for me to pay my bills, have a house and food, and even some luxuries, and still save for emergencies and the future. Everything on top of that I donate to charity because others need that money far more than I do.

But as I said, it's a personal thing, and many people would call me crazy for it, so... it's up to you to decide what you think a fair payment is and then find an employer who's willing to negotiate a comparable salary with you.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#14

Post by noname120 »

IceMetalPunk wrote: post #13

Depends entirely on the specifics of the job and the location of dev. Salaries are often determined partially by the cost of living for the employee, which varies from one place to another. I know, for instance, that people on my team at work make more than me for the same job simply because they live in NYC, which has a higher cost of living than I do here in suburban south Florida. My personal philosophy about mone…

Have you heard about the Earn To Give movement?

Plenty of people live under their means and dedicate their extra money to effective causes.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#15

Post by newaccount2021 »

consider three things:

1. market consolidation. A lot of cashflow-negative tech companies are going away.

2. automation. This is still out there, but eventually industry will find a way out of the software swamp.

3. competition. At some point, the US and China are going to square off. Instead of WW3, an agreement will be hammered out that likely results in Chinese tech companies getting back their access to US markets. And, the world is very busy graduation devs.

add these up and its buh-bye to the golden age of dev comp, its more amazing that it has lasted so long

devs in the future will make less than tree trimmers

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#16

Post by xenadu02 »

I don't think his tweet is saying SWEs don't deserve 400k. He's saying some business models are not viable at that price. So in relation to his tweet that's not wrong. If your medical business needs to hire doctors for 20k/yr to be viable then you don't have a business. At the end of the day that's no different than a child saying they're going to start a money tree business so they can just pick money off the trees and be rich. If you can drive the cost of doing business and your inputs toward zero almost any business idea could theoretically make a profit... but real markets are not so accommodating.

In relation to your question: no, 400k/yr is not overpaid. Software is an extremely scalable business where the marginal cost of every copy beyond the first is nearly zero. Lots of companies selling software (or relying on custom software as their competitive advantage) make far in excess of 400k off each engineer's labor. Plenty make millions per engineer, even after subtracting all other costs and non-engineer compensation. Companies don't pay 400k, 800k, or more to engineers out of charity. They do it because it is profitable.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#18

Post by saagarjha »

filoleg wrote: post #11
theandrewbailey wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

400K total compensation doesn't sound out of line for a particularly niche senior dev/software architect in California.

Or just a random senior dev at a FAANG. Can't speak for all of them, but that's definitely not uncommon at Meta/Google. And you are certainly gonna shoot above that number at L6.

If you’re at Google you should be approaching that number at L5, really.

Re: Is 400k/yr overpaid for a SWE?

#20

Post by IceMetalPunk »

noname120 wrote: post #14
IceMetalPunk wrote: post #13

Depends entirely on the specifics of the job and the location of dev. Salaries are often determined partially by the cost of living for the employee, which varies from one place to another. I know, for instance, that people on my team at work make more than me for the same job simply because they live in NYC, which has a higher cost of living than I do here in suburban south Florida. My personal philosophy about mone…

Have you heard about the Earn To Give movement? Plenty of people live under their means and dedicate their extra money to effective causes.

I hadn't heard of it, but skimming some quick reading about it, yeah, I definitely agree with it. It also led me to the term "effective altruism", which is something I've been advocating for pretty much my whole life, never knowing there was a phrase defined by it. So that's neat. I'm curious to know how what proportion of people around the world follow these principles; I can't find any definitive or combined data on it, and I'm cynical enough to think it's not very high, just from my own experiences with other people in our hypercapitalistic, hyperindividualistic US society.

Funny enough, the Wikipedia article about Earn To Give mentions something that reminds me of my father. It says that David Brooks and John Humphrys have criticized the movement by claiming that once people start earning wealth, they will inevitably become less altruistic over time. My father always used to say, "When you're young, you're a liberal, because you have a heart; but when you're older, you're a conservative, because you have a brain". (That is, of course, not something he made up, but a parroted quote that's been said for many years.) And it always struck me as not only odd, but cruel, to draw a dichotomy between empathy and rationality, as though it's literally stupid to care about other people.

Anyway, thank you for letting me know about something new! :)

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