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Complete Entanglement (Modern Slavery)

bootstrappingindependence.com

11–20 of 28 posts

Re: Complete Entanglement (Modern Slavery)

#11
post #9

Modern slavery is alive and well, but it isn't lusting after the newest thing. It's child trafficking, illegal immigration to another country (and then the company (or the pimp) holds your passport), and things of that nature. Reminds me of http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-am-so-starving-vs-i-am-so...

While people are starving, terrorized, enslaved and such, and that's really bad, that doesn't necessarily mean there's no point in asking whether you're any happier than you'd be as a subsistence farmer.^

If anything, a proper analysis of what really makes us happy could encourage us to use some of our material wealth helping those who are truly oppressed.

^Spoiler alert: Probably not.

Re: Complete Entanglement (Modern Slavery)

#12
Thanks for posting. Something about this rubs me the wrong way, so I read it a couple times to help me formulate my feedback.

I think the problem I have with this is that I can't create the same level of abstraction on the 'modern system' and 'slavery' that the author does. I'm not offended by the use of slavery as a point of comparison, but I don't think that it's really compared to the 'modern system' in a useful way. They are so many leagues apart, which can't be shown through the logical comparisons present in the article.

Also, the examples of entanglement aren't really inescapable evils that the argument requires (I'm looking at you car and iphone). I have no doubt those evils are out there.

But, you say, I'm missing the point. True enough, and I think there's a good point in this post that can be teased out through a little more revision. I think the payoff is at the end...the portion on disentangling. This is the hacker ethos, yes? Recognizing the artificial/restrictions and subverting it to make your life better. The best part of the article was where the author linked to his/her startup; it really shows where the logic is taking us. I guess I'd prefer it if this were more explicit in the conclusion (and probably more appealing to the people in this venue, although the many supportive comments indicate that many make this logical connection automatically). Again: Thanks.

Re: Complete Entanglement (Modern Slavery)

#13
What a load of junk. Pardon my French, but this is not slavery by any stretch of the imagination.

This is modern slavery:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery

Poor impulse control with respect to buying gadgets, thinking you have to keep up with the neighbours, assuming that you can be part of society without having to pull your weight, calling employers 'owners', ignoring social security (which is quite effective in many countries), these are all choices and the writer of the article seems to miss the point that these are choices.

Modern society works because we want it to work, we choose representatives which enact the laws which in turn create incentives to participate in society. For the most part, we govern ourselves through our ability to vote. Slaves could not vote.

Sure it isn't all roses, there are plenty of areas where there is waste and there is lots of unfairness.

The deck can feel stacked against you, that's a fact. But that does not mean that this equates to slavery, even in a modern sense. That does a great disservice to those that actually are in slavery today and whose plight makes the one of someone that has a hard time to refuse buying the next generation iGadget look like exactly what it is: A luxury problem.

There are factors at work to improve the situation (not always equally effective): technological progress means more pay for far less work, unions that give people that work collective power, and that have in some cases toppled governments (see Poland, ca. 1986) and so on.

Slavery is a serious issue, not living above your means and matching your expenses to your income so you don't run into debt is a bookkeeping problem and a psychological one.

The option to 'self employ' instead of being a part of the system is a false dichotomy, the third (unlisted) alternative is to be a bum.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing to be a bum.

Care should be taken to distinguish between societies that have a proper social security system in place and those that don't. For those countries that do not the number of choices people have may be seriously reduced and typically those countries have a larger percentage of their population below the poverty line or in the homeless category, and definitely not by choice.

Even in those situations you'd be hard pressed to call them slaves.

Re: Complete Entanglement (Modern Slavery)

#14
post #11
post #9

Modern slavery is alive and well, but it isn't lusting after the newest thing. It's child trafficking, illegal immigration to another country (and then the company (or the pimp) holds your passport), and things of that nature. Reminds me of http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-am-so-starving-vs-i-am-so...

While people are starving, terrorized, enslaved and such, and that's really bad, that doesn't necessarily mean there's no point in asking whether you're any happier than you'd be as a subsistence farmer.^ If anything, a proper analysis of what really makes us happy could encourage us to use some of our material wealth helping those who are truly oppressed. ^Spoiler alert: Probably not.

I understood GP's point as being about the use of the word slavery (to describe something that is not as bad as the real cases of modern slavery) rather than about the whole article being pointless.

Re: Complete Entanglement (Modern Slavery)

#16
post #14
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While people are starving, terrorized, enslaved and such, and that's really bad, that doesn't necessarily mean there's no point in asking whether you're any happier than you'd be as a subsistence farmer.^ If anything, a proper analysis of what really makes us happy could encourage us to use some of our material wealth helping those who are truly oppressed. ^Spoiler alert: Probably not.

I understood GP's point as being about the use of the word slavery (to describe something that is not as bad as the real cases of modern slavery) rather than about the whole article being pointless.

That's sensical-- I guess my response would be that if we can conceptualize different severities of murder, rape, theft et al., we're probably intelligent enough to perceive appropriate gradations to the statement "If you stop working you will die."

Re: Complete Entanglement (Modern Slavery)

#17
post #13

What a load of junk. Pardon my French, but this is not slavery by any stretch of the imagination. This is modern slavery: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery Poor impulse control with respect to buying gadgets, thinking you have to keep up with the neighbours, assuming that you can be part of society without having to pull your weight, calling employers 'owners', ignoring social security (which is quite…

There is a strong political movement in America, where we do not have what the civilized world would think of as a proper social security system, that believes that bums deserve to die.

Just sayin'.

Re: Complete Entanglement (Modern Slavery)

#18
Oh the wangst!

What is one supposed to escape to? The world is a bit crowded to support very many hunter-gatherers. I heartily agree with minimizing debt so as not to "become the lender's slave", but as many have pointed out, that is hardly true slavery.

Our house is paid off, and so are our cars, though they are about 10 to 20 years old. In truth, we probably need to shed a few possessions, so it's good to have a reminder, but the melodrama needs to be toned down a bit on this article, so as to better expose the nugget of truth within.

Re: Complete Entanglement (Modern Slavery)

#19

Thanks for posting. Something about this rubs me the wrong way, so I read it a couple times to help me formulate my feedback. I think the problem I have with this is that I can't create the same level of abstraction on the 'modern system' and 'slavery' that the author does. I'm not offended by the use of slavery as a point of comparison, but I don't think that it's really compared to the 'modern system' in a useful w…

"Recognizing the artificial/restrictions and subverting it to make your life better" - I think we all strive to do that. Like you, I have some reserves will the article, but it definitely rings a bell.

Yet how exactly is creating a company any better? If you keep servicing other people interest, it could be called an illusion of freedom. You will compromise yourself at a time or another.

If you hire people to really get your freedom, it's subjugating others, and it may not be any better if you consider other persons besides yourself also matter.

There's another great article on HN at the moment - passion and professionalism (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6523/the_designers_not...), that explores this on a one-person basis.

Passion is great but it can become a self-imposed slavery too.

Re: Complete Entanglement (Modern Slavery)

#20

Nice article, thanks for posting. Money quote: The more we buy into consumerism as a lifestyle, the less we are able to see clearly and become independent, as our social stature begins to depend on our consumerist successes. The slavemasters here are ourselves, or more accurately our subconscious desires (to be popular, sexy and powerful) as interpreted and channeled by the market. On this subject, I would strongly r…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyPzGUsYyKM
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